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Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

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Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#21

Post by karmacondon »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #2

It is always intriguing that people in the West are so sheltered from the fact that this has been going on for over a decade. And they then are, not surprisingly, surprised that the people at the receiving end of this and those that are from the area are very upset about it. What if some other nation had been bombing remote villages in your country whilst attempting to target "terrorists and extremists", but often ki…

The links you posted reference Iraq, which was not a very nice place over the last decade. In many cases, a strong personality would emerge as a local leader. He'll usually have access to several small arms and enough money to feed and pay several dozen militia fighters. To legitimize his power he'll coordinate attacks on US personnel, usually ambushes, and make deals with people who have connections to global "terrorist and extremist" organizations who can provide him with resources to pay for more weapons and manpower. This hypothetical leader isn't beholden to the law and makes up the rules for the people in the areas that he controls based on his interpretations of religious teachings and personal views on justice and proper conduct. The government has so many problems to deal with that they aren't in a position to oppose him or restore any kind of rule of law to the people that live in his sphere of influence. As his power increases, he becomes a more useful piece on a larger chess board, controlled by leadership in Mosul, Yemen or Saudi Arabia.

To the US, the solution is clear: Kill that guy. The force of his personality is what's holding his local power structure together, and if he's dead there's a good chance that the whole thing will collapse. This will take a piece off the board for a global opponent and give the national or regional government one less problem to deal with. Given that he lives in a remote area that he knows like the back of his hand, getting close to him would be difficult. But if they can pay someone to tell them where he is at a specific time, all it takes is one drone strike to solve a lot of problems for a lot of people.

It's not a perfect system. Sources will frequently give false locations in order to kill their own enemies or settle personal scores. Sometimes the intelligence is out of date by only a few hours, the target leaves a house and innocent people move in to it behind him. Or the weapons just plain miss.

The question is, do you have a better plan? Because the guys at the Pentagon would really like to hear it. Ceding large swaths of a country to random strong men doesn't seem like a sustainable solution. It's not good for the people in that country, it's not good for global security and it's not good for business. Civilian casualties are always regrettable and make for compelling headlines. But at some point, someone has to have an eye on the bigger picture. If there's a better course of action, then it should be taken immediately. Until then all the US government can do is to use the tools that it has available to deal with the current situation.

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#22

Post by gldalmaso »

When all you have is a weapon everything looks like a target.

US are being irresponsible pricks playing with guns and technology that is obviously not well suited for this kind of threat assessment.

Also $5,000 per family? Really? Even after admitting the error? The U.S. Special Forces, Military, CIA or whatever are that low on budget (hardly) or simply do not give a flying fuck?

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#23

Post by chroma »

middleclick wrote: post #12

And this is how you create more terrorists. When you see an innocent family member being killed and you have nothing around you - no food, no education - hate overpowers you and you hate the people who did this to people you loved.

While it sounds compelling, such thought processes rarely drive Al Qaeda members or ISIS fighters. If you actually ask them, they say they are driven by their religion.[1] Obviously, airstrikes make it easier for them to hate us, but even if we did nothing but build schools and hospitals, they would try to kill us. This is evidenced by the fact that they behead aid workers and journalists from countries like France and Japan.

There is a huge moral difference between America and ISIS. If the US had perfectly accurate weaponry and information, they would spare every innocent life. If ISIS had the same technology, they would slaughter innocents by the millions.

Note: My comment should not be construed as endorsing the Iraq war. Armies are very blunt instruments, but knowledge of that fact is supposed to discourage going to war.

1. http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isi...

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#24

Post by EliRivers »

karmacondon wrote: post #21
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #2

It is always intriguing that people in the West are so sheltered from the fact that this has been going on for over a decade. And they then are, not surprisingly, surprised that the people at the receiving end of this and those that are from the area are very upset about it. What if some other nation had been bombing remote villages in your country whilst attempting to target "terrorists and extremists", but often ki…

The links you posted reference Iraq, which was not a very nice place over the last decade. In many cases, a strong personality would emerge as a local leader. He'll usually have access to several small arms and enough money to feed and pay several dozen militia fighters. To legitimize his power he'll coordinate attacks on US personnel, usually ambushes, and make deals with people who have connections to global "terro…

The question is, do you have a better plan?

The better plan will take three or perhaps four generations. The Western world simply does not have the ability to do it, for various reasons.

all it takes is one drone strike to solve a lot of problems for a lot of people.

And also create a bunch more angry, humilated people with no recourse other than terror tactics. Hey look, we're creating terrorists! We are so fucking stupid it hurts my head.

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#25

Post by marktangotango »

karmacondon wrote: post #21
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #2

It is always intriguing that people in the West are so sheltered from the fact that this has been going on for over a decade. And they then are, not surprisingly, surprised that the people at the receiving end of this and those that are from the area are very upset about it. What if some other nation had been bombing remote villages in your country whilst attempting to target "terrorists and extremists", but often ki…

The links you posted reference Iraq, which was not a very nice place over the last decade. In many cases, a strong personality would emerge as a local leader. He'll usually have access to several small arms and enough money to feed and pay several dozen militia fighters. To legitimize his power he'll coordinate attacks on US personnel, usually ambushes, and make deals with people who have connections to global "terro…

This will be down voted, but it does accurately reflect the reality of the situation as perceived by those in power.

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#26

Post by lucio »

lazyjones wrote: post #9

I was a bit disappointed not to find any thoughts about the proliferation of smaller, affordable drones and their potential uses in assassinating people (by criminals) in the article. It's not hard to imagine this happening sooner or later and it's scary to think about even smaller (insect-size) and more autonomous (no RC operator nearby) gadgets and their potential effectiveness. How many years till a robotic fly ca…

This is slightly unsettling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUSMpCckEbY

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#27

Post by gldalmaso »

karmacondon wrote: post #21
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #2

It is always intriguing that people in the West are so sheltered from the fact that this has been going on for over a decade. And they then are, not surprisingly, surprised that the people at the receiving end of this and those that are from the area are very upset about it. What if some other nation had been bombing remote villages in your country whilst attempting to target "terrorists and extremists", but often ki…

The links you posted reference Iraq, which was not a very nice place over the last decade. In many cases, a strong personality would emerge as a local leader. He'll usually have access to several small arms and enough money to feed and pay several dozen militia fighters. To legitimize his power he'll coordinate attacks on US personnel, usually ambushes, and make deals with people who have connections to global "terro…

> The question is, do you have a better plan? Because the guys at the Pentagon would really like to hear it.

Stop invading other nations for oil then complain the locals dislike you and kill your troops.

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#28

Post by lazyjones »

chroma wrote: post #23
middleclick wrote: post #12

And this is how you create more terrorists. When you see an innocent family member being killed and you have nothing around you - no food, no education - hate overpowers you and you hate the people who did this to people you loved.

While it sounds compelling, such thought processes rarely drive Al Qaeda members or ISIS fighters. If you actually ask them, they say they are driven by their religion.[1] Obviously, airstrikes make it easier for them to hate us, but even if we did nothing but build schools and hospitals, they would try to kill us. This is evidenced by the fact that they behead aid workers and journalists from countries like France a…

Wow, I didn't expect to find such shameless propaganda on HN. Every single sentence is factually wrong and insulting to readers' intelligence here.

If it's not obvious to someone: just read some actual interviews with radical muslims, purported reasoning by Bin Laden etc. - their reasons are always political, the US is targeted specifically because of all the death and destruction it has brought to the Middle East. Japanese "aid workers and journalists" (actually: a military contractor and a journalist) were targeted because Japan donated $100 mil. to the fight against IS (as said in the videos: http://www.newsnation.in/article/67223-is-threatens-kill-jap...), the ransom asked was $100 mil. for each hostage.

Don't believe the crappy propaganda: look for facts and then ask yourselves why the US supporters need these lies.

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#29

Post by socialist_coder »

lazyjones wrote: post #9

I was a bit disappointed not to find any thoughts about the proliferation of smaller, affordable drones and their potential uses in assassinating people (by criminals) in the article. It's not hard to imagine this happening sooner or later and it's scary to think about even smaller (insect-size) and more autonomous (no RC operator nearby) gadgets and their potential effectiveness. How many years till a robotic fly ca…

I was also disappointed the article was not about personal drones being modified to kill. It's going to happen, sooner rather than later.

Re: Drones and the rise of the high tech assassins

#30

Post by Udik »

karmacondon wrote: post #21
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #2

It is always intriguing that people in the West are so sheltered from the fact that this has been going on for over a decade. And they then are, not surprisingly, surprised that the people at the receiving end of this and those that are from the area are very upset about it. What if some other nation had been bombing remote villages in your country whilst attempting to target "terrorists and extremists", but often ki…

The links you posted reference Iraq, which was not a very nice place over the last decade. In many cases, a strong personality would emerge as a local leader. He'll usually have access to several small arms and enough money to feed and pay several dozen militia fighters. To legitimize his power he'll coordinate attacks on US personnel, usually ambushes, and make deals with people who have connections to global "terro…

Except that the US are the main cause for those bad guys being there in the first pace, as they waged war (with justifications that later proved worthless) against the dictator that was able to keep the area under control.

So, what the US should do now in Iraq? I have no idea. What should they do in general and in the future? Stop messing with foreign countries, destabilizing governments and waging wars with the silly idea of making the world a safer and more peaceful place. It doesn't work.

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