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Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

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Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#81

Post by raincom »

theVirginian wrote: post #24
imcrs wrote: post #7

Law has changed since the 80s and 90s. The profession was much more of a bloodsport. Less cases settled, far less went to arbitration, and more money was spent when a case did go to trial. Nowadays the culture has shifted almost completely to keeping costs down and settling things outside of court -- either settling outright or through a mediated arbitration (much less expensive). It's no surprise to me that law scho…

I interned in a law firm my entire senior year and now hold a BA with majors in Government and Philosophy. These experiences would leave me well primed to go to law school which was my original intention after graduation. After spending time in the firm however it is really eye opening to see how the business is rapidly changing. There is an over supply of young lawyers these days for a number of reason. First, there…

Yeah, doc review attorneys, who hardly make $30 per hr in Manhattan, but are subcontracted to a big law firm, which charges its client $350 per hour. Now clients have realized it, and started to offshore doc review work.

Look at this old web site: www.shitlawjobs.com

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#82

Post by seanmcdirmid »

guelo wrote: post #26
theVirginian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, engineering students statistically score highest on the LSAT out of any undergraduate degree

I think this is because an engineering undergrad degree is way harder than most other degrees except maybe pre-med types. That means there's a substantial weeding out effect plus all the extra studying helps shore up the general knowledge that the LSAT tests. In general, poli-sci or history majors have spent the previous four years idling. After I got my EE degree I took the GRE and GMAT and aced them, getting 95th+…

> except maybe pre-med types

As pre-med isn't an undergrad degree in the states, we'd probably find pre-meds with engineering undergrad degrees outscore other majors on the MCAT. The engineering grad is also a bonus for admission (given way too many chem/biology applicants). Not that this happens very often, however.

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#83

Post by bbanyc »

granfalloon wrote: post #37
geebee wrote: post #13

Another factor to consider here is a rise (if any) in engineering undergraduate degrees. I know that grad engineering degrees to law degrees seems like more of an apples-to-apples comparison, but there's a big difference. A history major who goes to law school goes from not lawyer to lawyer (assuming he or she passes the bar). Engineering graduate students, on the other hand, almost always have a background in their…

As a lawyer, I think I'd actually be in favor of the opposite approach -- law school (maybe just one year) with no bar exam. I guess the bar has some value as a "last line of defense" against totally incompetent people entering the profession [1], but it's really just a giant memorization frenzy with no real practical benefit. It's expected that you'll get a large chunk of the test wrong and forget everything in a co…

Agreed on "way too expensive and way too long." Most of the world seems to do fine with law as an undergraduate degree. I think a mandatory apprenticeship period, as Canada and the UK have, would also be useful, as neither American law schools nor the bar exam teach you much about how to actually practice law. (But good luck convincing the ABA education committee of any of this...)

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#84

Post by objclxt »

kylestlb wrote: post #20
geebee wrote: post #5

Interesting data, but I'm not sure the title is supported by the conclusion. The title reads "US students are fleeing law schools and pouring into engineering." This is backed up by data that shows law school enrollment declining and engineering graduate enrollment increasing. However, it's not exactly a secret that engineering graduate programs have higher international student enrollment than law schools. So we'd n…

This is my thought. What percentage of the engineering grad school bump is non-US citizens? What percentage of people who go to law school are non-US citizens? From purely anecdotal experience, I would guess that a significant portion of the rise in grad school attendance is from international students.

> What percentage of people who go to law school are non-US citizens?

Significantly fewer than engineering schools, because engineering degrees are applicable worldwide, and law degrees are applicable only to the jurisdiction you wish to practice in.

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#85

Post by [deleted] »

rudimental wrote: post #53
theVirginian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, engineering students statistically score highest on the LSAT out of any undergraduate degree

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I've read a lot of data, eg the link below, that shows that engineers do very well, but aren't the top major. With that in mind, it's not as if all students from all majors are required to take the exam- the data represents those people that self-selected to take the lsat. http://www.potsdam.edu/academics/AAS/Phil/upload/LSAT-Scores...

[deleted]

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#87

Post by barry-cotter »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #38
arjunnarayan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised. The "logic" section of the LSAT (traditionally said to be the hardest part of the test) is much easier if you know some computer science/discrete math. A lot of questions can be quickly parsed into some sort of constraint satisfaction problem, and using the right tool (drawing truth tables/constructing a directed acyclic graph) means you can get to the answer much faster.[1] Since the LSAT is a tim…

Standardized test scores aren't that important after your first professional job. For some reason, though, the financial industry is infatuated with GPAs.

They get an unspeakable number of applicants and finance requires horse like work ethic, a high tolerance for boredom and detail orientation. A high GPA is a strong signal of all of those and also has a very high correlation with g/IQ/processing speed.

Work sample tests might work better but at least in the UK they do multiple rounds of structured interviews followed by free form interviews after filtering by class of degree/university prestige. I bet their false positive rate on hiring is very low even if the false negative rate is high.

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#88

Post by josaka »

graeme wrote: post #4

One thing these stats don't capture is the effective tuition charged by law schools. Schools are raising sticker prices, but handing out more scholarships. From discussions with someone who tracks these things, effective law school tuitions have been dropping. Law school attendance for most students is being subsidized by richer students and by those who haven't figured out that law school at sticker is generally a s…

As a product of the system, agreed 100%. Also, the true cost should account for lost income while in law school. As opportunities improve for those students who could excel in other areas, the lost income exceeds the tuition cost.

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#89

Post by adventured »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #69
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ten years, a huge amount of legal work will be done with software. A gigantic codified legal system is a job almost tailor made for machine learning.

Could you elaborate? I think a better approach would be to revise the legal codex so that it becomes simple enough for individuals to research and lower dependency on professional lawyers. Moreover, I disagree with the common analogy made in circles like HN that laws resemble code. Perhaps in some esoteric probabilistic language they might, though I don't believe thinking such as "ML will fix this" will yield a prope…

Well, to step back from even the future the parent is describing, consider what's already taking place.

LegalZoom type services are wiping out entire segments that pricey lawyers used to occupy. Need to incorporate? Don't spend thousands of dollars, spend $150 to $200 + state fees. Need a trademark? $150 to $200 plus govt fees. Need a basic will? $50 to $100, no hassle.

There are somewhere around 3 to 4 million corporations in the US. Most of those will fail and die over ten years. The new corporations that get started, will increasingly use easier and cheaper web services to incorporate. That's billions of dollars in lawyer revenue wiped out every ten years, from one example service.

Re: Students are fleeing US law schools and pouring into engineering

#90

Post by tzs »

arjunnarayan wrote: post #31
theVirginian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, engineering students statistically score highest on the LSAT out of any undergraduate degree

I'm not surprised. The "logic" section of the LSAT (traditionally said to be the hardest part of the test) is much easier if you know some computer science/discrete math. A lot of questions can be quickly parsed into some sort of constraint satisfaction problem, and using the right tool (drawing truth tables/constructing a directed acyclic graph) means you can get to the answer much faster.[1] Since the LSAT is a tim…

I think the section that delighted you is actually called the "analytical reasoning" section. The "logical reasoning" section gives you a paragraph about some subject, and that asks about inferences and deductions you can make from that.

There are samples from both sections here for comparison: http://www.lsac.org/jd/lsat/about-the-lsat/

I too found analytic reasoning delightful, both during practice tests and during the actual test. One thing about the actual test that kicked it up a notch over practice tests (aside from the pressure of it being for real) was that you could not bring scratch paper to the real test. There was a fair bit of empty space in the test booklet so you had room for truth tables, graphs, and such, but if you botched one and had to start over you might find scratch space tight.

I aced analytic reasoning. Shortly after the test, I saw a magazine at the supermarket full of those kinds of problems. The shelf position and the ads in the magazine indicated it was aimed at older women. I bought it, because I enjoyed that part of the test so much, but didn't have much hope because I aced that part of the LSAT! How are puzzles for Grannies going to be a challenge? So I tried a level 3 difficulty puzzle (range was 1 to 5 with 5 the hardest).

It DESTROYED me. I could do level 1 reasonably, and level 2 with a lot of effort.

I vowed that if I did become a lawyer, I would not take cases that would pit me against old ladies. (I did not become a lawyer. I decided near the end of law school that I would rather be a programmer who knew a lot about law than a lawyer who knew a lot about programming. My policy of not going against old ladies in battles of wits remains in force).

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