Assignment: Creating a D&D Character • Hacker News Board

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#11

Post by mesozoic » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:09 PM UTC

smtucker wrote: post #4

>Next comes one of the worst and one of the best parts of D&D’s character system. D&D’s Race system is, frankly, kind of gross. The idea that a person’s race tells you something about their character is a sign of the racist elements in the fantasy tradition before and around D&D. ...Really? This type of thought coming from MIT makes me question my sanity.

So are they trying to say an Orc could be just as good of a ballerina as an Elf? This is much more likely to be true in 5th edition anyway (which they chose) than 2nd edition where things like Dwarf wizards can't even exist. So we have made some progress in the realm of D&D racism (should probably be specism anyway though)

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#12

Post by thedz » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:11 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #7

I'm not sure if the author of this page understands what "race" means in D&D terms. It's basically species. Dwarves aren't just little people. They're literally not inter-fertile with humans. Now, fair enough, much of the "race" difference manifests itself as differences in cultural background - cultural norms, language, etc. But it's not the same way people use the term "race" in the real world.

It is, and isn't. "Dwarf" is a different species than Humans, true, but D&D also use the "subrace" classificatin for things like Mountain Dwarves, etc.

D&D is hardly the only or even first offender in this regard (it's a common and much talked issue in the larger Fantasy/RPG milieu).

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#13

Post by TillE » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #7

I'm not sure if the author of this page understands what "race" means in D&D terms. It's basically species. Dwarves aren't just little people. They're literally not inter-fertile with humans. Now, fair enough, much of the "race" difference manifests itself as differences in cultural background - cultural norms, language, etc. But it's not the same way people use the term "race" in the real world.

There's a lot of little things that D&D invented and have quietly become standard gaming tropes, and I think that slightly incorrect usage of "race" might be one of them.

Other games have both "races" and cultures, which makes things a bit clearer.

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#14

Post by ruffin » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

herbig wrote: post #5

cmaggard wrote: post #2

Providing a scanned copy of the most recent Player's Handbook probably isn't the best idea for something like this. Any of the System Reference Documents from the 3rd Edition era could stand in its place without many material changes.

Basic 5th Edition rules are provided for free online by Wizards of the Coast. Providing anything else would likely be a copyright violation.

Link for convenience: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#15

Post by jxcl » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:14 PM UTC

> Dwarves are good at building things not because of some essential genetic racial qualities, but because they are raised in a culture that values building and passes on a certain set of traditional practices around it.

Really? Let's say that the DM chose to run a game with mermaids in it. Would anyone question the (theoretically) superior swimming ability of mermaids? Let's see how a similar statement reads:

Mermaids are good at swimming not because of some essential genetic racial qualities, but because they are raised in a culture that values swimming and passes on a certain set of traditional practices around it.

It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

Edit: And if you're going to deride D&D for that, why not praise it for its lack of sexism (I'm talking about the stats system, not the art here)? The higher amount of testosterone in a man's body makes it much easier for him to gain muscle, but the D&D stat system allows both male and female characters "equal opportunity", so to speak, by not adding or subtracting stats based on gender choice.

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#16

Post by jonesetc » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:14 PM UTC

thedz wrote: post #8

smtucker wrote: post #4

>Next comes one of the worst and one of the best parts of D&D’s character system. D&D’s Race system is, frankly, kind of gross. The idea that a person’s race tells you something about their character is a sign of the racist elements in the fantasy tradition before and around D&D. ...Really? This type of thought coming from MIT makes me question my sanity.

Why? It's a fairly common criticism of fantasy—that entire races and ethnic groups are pretty commonly stereotyped.

Because D&D races might as well be called species. These are not ethnicities, they are entirely different biologies. So having a problem with D&D races stems from an oversensitivity to the word race.

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#17

Post by herbig » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:16 PM UTC

smtucker wrote: post #4

>Next comes one of the worst and one of the best parts of D&D’s character system. D&D’s Race system is, frankly, kind of gross. The idea that a person’s race tells you something about their character is a sign of the racist elements in the fantasy tradition before and around D&D. ...Really? This type of thought coming from MIT makes me question my sanity.

Agreed.

"Dwarves are good at building things not because of some essential genetic racial qualities, but because they are raised in a culture that values building and passes on a certain set of traditional practices around it."

Dwarves (and Elves) can also see in the dark and can live for many hundreds of years. In many ways a character's race is a set of advantages derived from genetic qualities.

This isn't race in a human racial sense. The word "race" is used, when biologically speaking it should likely be species.

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#18

Post by chucksmash » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:16 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #7

I'm not sure if the author of this page understands what "race" means in D&D terms. It's basically species. Dwarves aren't just little people. They're literally not inter-fertile with humans. Now, fair enough, much of the "race" difference manifests itself as differences in cultural background - cultural norms, language, etc. But it's not the same way people use the term "race" in the real world.

Even if on the surface the in-universe beings are from another species, that isn't necessarily a get out of jail free card. People can and will read between the lines.

This happened in the context of sci-fi when The Phantom Menace came out. I remember reading criticisms of both the Gungans[1] and the Trade Federation aliens as weakly veiled racial stereotypes.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks#Allegations_of_ra...

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#19

Post by mesozoic » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:17 PM UTC

jxcl wrote: post #15

> Dwarves are good at building things not because of some essential genetic racial qualities, but because they are raised in a culture that values building and passes on a certain set of traditional practices around it. Really? Let's say that the DM chose to run a game with mermaids in it. Would anyone question the (theoretically) superior swimming ability of mermaids? Let's see how a similar statement reads: Mermaid…

And dragonborn are good at breathing fire not because of their genetic racial qualities but because their culture values such things.

Re: Assignment: Creating a D&D Character

#20

Post by guyzero » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:19 PM UTC

thedz wrote: post #12

guyzero wrote: post #7

I'm not sure if the author of this page understands what "race" means in D&D terms. It's basically species. Dwarves aren't just little people. They're literally not inter-fertile with humans. Now, fair enough, much of the "race" difference manifests itself as differences in cultural background - cultural norms, language, etc. But it's not the same way people use the term "race" in the real world.

It is, and isn't. "Dwarf" is a different species than Humans, true, but D&D also use the "subrace" classificatin for things like Mountain Dwarves, etc. D&D is hardly the only or even first offender in this regard (it's a common and much talked issue in the larger Fantasy/RPG milieu).

Given the descriptions usually associated with subraces like the Drow or Mountain Dwarves I'm not sure if the racial stereotyping is a lot more offensive than the fact that the groups as portrayed have non-existent or stone-age economies. You know why Dwarves aren't portrayed as reading books? Because they're not portrayed as owning books or anything beyond pickaxes for that matter.

Games and game worlds can and have been designed differently but this is how D&D is. There's definitely space for critical commentary, but complaining about it or calling it "evil" is like complaining about the physics in a "Transformers" movie. If you want an accurate simulation of reality, there's reality. Or GURPS.