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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#261

Post by TeMPOraL »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #259
TeMPOraL wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a "weird nerd", let me explain. "Weird nerds" are the people who not so long ago were ostracized by society for their interest in science and technology. They weren't "cool", they weren't doing things that "cool" people do, so they were bullied. Many of them indeed became programmers and laid foundation of what is now the IT industry. Then, tech became mainstream and seen as a very good career path. It started bei…

I don't agree that the "cool nerds" are impostors and only do it for the attention. I think the difference is more a personality one - extroverts vs introverts. The former in the 'nerd' subculture is the type that goes to ALL the meetups, that likes networking, is highly active on social networking, etc etc etc, while the latter prefers to be left alone with his (literal) devices.

I didn't mean to say that "cool nerds" are impostors - they have every right and reason to be interested in technology, but the kind of deep love for technical interests seem to correlate more with "weird nerd" character traits. I might be wrong about the actual causation though. Introvert/extrovert seem to be correlated too, but not perfectly.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#262

Post by seba_dos1 »

gadders wrote: post #210
reitanqild wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a sad case of people proving that once the tables got turned the once who once was oppressed will happily deny others the right of free speech. And, the majority, the ones who care less about right and wrong as long as they are on the correct side, will happily follow along, just as they did when Catholics ruled, just as they did when White Straight ruled.

FWIW I'd apply a "does it affect how they behave at work?" test. If I had a very good developer who was perfectly courteous and professional at work but in his spare time was (say) a member of the Westborough Baptist Church or the Socialist Workers Party I'd not be concerned.

I wouldn't as well, but as soon as that developer would become representative of my company and people would start to bring it out in connection to the company, I'd start to worry about my image.

For your typical standard worker it doesn't really matter what he/she does outside of work, as long as it doesn't damage the company - which is pretty hard unless you really try, since nobody outside gives a damn about some noname employee. For someone very high in hierarchy it actually becomes much easier to damage it, so you have to draw a line somewhere. If your company, supposed to promote messages of equality and taking pride of its supposed openness, elects someone who actively supported means of oppression against minorities as its representative and people start to react, there might be something worth reconsidering in this situation.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#263

Post by Cthulhu_ »

LordHumungous wrote: post #50

>Programming is an inherently constructivist discipline. A constructivist is like the archetypal Missourian: “Show me!” Many "hackers" are unable to apply this principle to the field of business. They don't understand business, they aren't good at it, and therefore they see it as nothing more than empty headed self-promoters jockeying for social status, just like those "cool kids" who picked on them in high school. T…

I don't think they're unable to - after all, high-volume trading algorithms were made by some of the brightest minds around. What I think is that at least for hacker culture, ethics plays a large part.

Linus didn't make Linux because he wanted to make money (he could've been as rich as Bill Gates by now if he played it right - his OS certainly grew much larger than Gates').

Phil Zimmerman didn't make PGP to make money, or maintain it for the past 25 years for that, he did it purely out of idealistic standpoints - and it required a mention in an interview and an internet donation drive for him to finally get some recognition for his work.

Snowden didn't release secrets to the public because he wanted to make money - he could've made a pretty penny selling them to Russia or the media or whoever, he didn't not release them because of loyalty to their country, ge released them because he thought it was the right thing to do, that mass surveillance was inherently wrong.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#264

Post by Cthulhu_ »

john_butts wrote: post #169

Am I misreading the Japan thing? Like, it's not hard to imagine that there would be candidates that would be immediately excluded based on surname alone without even getting into race or gender - is this "fair" or "unfair", or is it just the way things are? Is the latter(est) the analogy we're supposed to take from this?

The Japan analogy is more a reference to people of a completely different culture (like the US) going to Japan and making the Japanese adhere to their culture, instead of the other way around. It may not be a very accurate comparison though, and to extend on the analogy, if Japan was to open up its borders, they would have to adjust themselves.

Compare getting employees from India over to the US; there are some cultural differences that may be hard to work with / around, but both parties (employee/existing co-workers and the new foreign workers) will both have to adjust.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#265

Post by Cthulhu_ »

djcapelis wrote: post #28
mistermann wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brogrammer is perhaps used for efficiency, so you don't have to write a 10 page screed as we just read (which was excellent by the way). I don't think there's any way to say it in a non-derogatory way if the central message is derogatory. The article seemed to be saying, we have a culture, and if you people infiltrate it, there is a good chance you will ruin it. I happen to agree with him.

> I happen to agree with him. Her, for whatever it's worth.

I had to do a double-take when the author was referred to as 'her' in the comments thread to be honest. I'm just used to articles like this, describing nerd culture and whatnot, to be written by men - the traditional nerd. That's probably part of the problem, really, expectations and stereotyping about gender (and race, and sexual orientation, and gender, and personality, etc etc etc)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#266

Post by [deleted] »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #263
LordHumungous wrote: post #50

>Programming is an inherently constructivist discipline. A constructivist is like the archetypal Missourian: “Show me!” Many "hackers" are unable to apply this principle to the field of business. They don't understand business, they aren't good at it, and therefore they see it as nothing more than empty headed self-promoters jockeying for social status, just like those "cool kids" who picked on them in high school. T…

I don't think they're unable to - after all, high-volume trading algorithms were made by some of the brightest minds around. What I think is that at least for hacker culture, ethics plays a large part. Linus didn't make Linux because he wanted to make money (he could've been as rich as Bill Gates by now if he played it right - his OS certainly grew much larger than Gates'). Phil Zimmerman didn't make PGP to make mone…

[deleted]

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#267

Post by Buge »

djcapelis wrote: post #43
Buge wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realized she was a woman from this line: >There are progressive, libertarian, anarchist, moderate, communist, conservative, liberal, and reactionary hackers, just the same as can be said for women, bisexuals, Texans, or engineers who aren’t hackers. The sentence only really makes sense if the final 4 traits are describing the author.

Meredith is a hacker under any definition. So that trait definitely is not descriptive of her.

I meant the 4 in the list (women, bisexuals, Texans, engineers).

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#268

Post by arrrg »

jschwartzi wrote: post #168
arrrg wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meritocracy is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It’s an illusion, a joke.

It's actually an ideal. Ideals also don't exist in reality. The difference is that ideals are generally held to be worth striving for in spite of that.

Actually it’s used as a bludgeon to kill all debate, not something to strive towards. The point that’s always made is that something already is this magical and perfect meritocracy with the selection process already working perfectly. The term meritocracy is thrown into the faces of those that question the selection process as a defense of the selection process. Perfectness is just assumed, not something to be strived for. Your statement makes just no sense at all when considering the context in which meritocracy is typically used when defending exclusionary selection processes. It’s downright absurd.

And that’s even ignoring all the grave moral quandaries you get into when you base who can participate on merit – if that is even possible and if you can even coherently define what the hell merit means. Merit is hard to nail down and as such can be easily used as a convenient tool for exclusion.

In light of the long and heated debates about how to best conduct job interviews (nobody knows, really!), often seen right here on HN, this all is especially absurd. It seems that put into a slightly different context (of a job interview) everyone knows that selection processes are frail, complex, complicated things, hard to get right – and even at its best you will make mistakes. Selection processes are fucking hard to get right. Doesn’t everyone know that? How, in that context, can you then turn around and claim that there is no issue because meritocracy. It sounds like a bad joke. A horrible joke, one that kills all debate about selection processes and how we can improve them (or even where selection is necessary and where not and based on what and how and how we should deal with the frailty and difficulty of evaluating human fucking beings.)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#269

Post by LordHumungous »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #173
LordHumungous wrote: post #50

>Programming is an inherently constructivist discipline. A constructivist is like the archetypal Missourian: “Show me!” Many "hackers" are unable to apply this principle to the field of business. They don't understand business, they aren't good at it, and therefore they see it as nothing more than empty headed self-promoters jockeying for social status, just like those "cool kids" who picked on them in high school. T…

It isn't such a blind spot. They may understand the "prime directive" pretty well and see how bullshit it is. It's a system of redistribution of scarce resources that most people got confused about and now play it as a game of its own. It's not the profit that should matter, but the value that is produced, the improvement of human condition.

Let's face it, 90% of companies in this industry produce nothing but meaningless bullshit. If you work at one of the few companies that is making the world a better place and not just selling ads, social media, games, or other diversions for rich people then my advice may not apply to you. I don't work for one of those companies, and I prefer to dispense with the notion that anything I'm doing is for the improvement of the human condition. It's about money, period, full stop.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#270

Post by ZeroGravitas »

copsarebastards wrote: post #254
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing) You seem very sure about when Adria Richards (the lady involved in "donglegate") "tried" to join the nerd community. And yet you're wrong. Here's a partial bio from a recent article: "She was introverted, smart, and "weird" (according to the other kids)—a burgeoning nerd. By age 17, sh…

I agree with you—she wasn’t an outsider trying to join the group. She’s a real nerd, culturally. But this is exactly what I (and many nerds) don't care about. I don't care whether Adria Richards is in the in-group or the out-group. I care about her ideas. I care about her code. So far I’ve only seen her ideas, and her ideas include feeling like her life was threatened because of a “dongle” joke. That’s not a scathing…

Talking of "false", you know that you just made up the bit about Adria feeling her life was threatened by the dongle jokes, right? She tweeted that it was " not cool" and against the code of conduct.

To be clear, she was literally, actually, threatened with death (amongst other things) after it blew up in the media.

I'm kind of intrigued what the next, easily disproved lie is going to be on this topic.

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