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Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

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Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#81

Post by sanswork »

mrb wrote: post #76
sanswork wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing most people who claim chargebacks are needed overlook is the impact the availability of chargebacks has on reducing the types of actions merchants take which might require one. The existence of the chargeback mechanism itself means merchants are more likely to ensure customer satisfaction to avoid them. That doesn't mean they aren't needed it could also mean they are incredibly effective at limited merchant…

Chargebacks are just one of many methods that customers can use to maintain uprightness among merchants: legal actions (eg. small-claims courts), complaints to FTC or BBB, online reviews, etc.

P.S. it's been a long time since we chatted how have you been?

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#82

Post by IkmoIkmo »

jafaku wrote: post #65
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's idiotic to assume an investor will invest in a company to buy coins, rather than coins directly. Maybe if it was expensive art, exotic animals or something difficult and tricky to buy and store without having specialized knowledge, yes then you'd invest in a company to buy and manage these assets. But storing bitcoin is storing private keys... a password. Anyone can buy it and store it. Hell you can even buy it…

It's not idiotic, that's why there is a Bitcoin fund, and soon there will be a Bitcoin ETF. If being an expert in computer security isn't "specialized knowledge", I don't know what it is.

You're not following.

I'm not arguing whether investors right now buy bitcoin directly or through a fund. Obviously they do both.

I'm arguing that NOBODY buys bitcoin through a non-fund bitcoin company that has actual products, like payment processing, consumer brokerage, wallet etc, which is what this new company is about. It's not a fund, it's a company with a product.

i.e. nobody invests in jet fuel by investing in an airline, despite the fact that all airlines trade in jetfuel. They either buy jetfuel (rare considering its properties) or buy into a jetfuel fund, etf, index.

It's just completely ridiculous and not true and unsupported by any evidence, that investors would want exposure to the price of bitcoin by investing in say Coinbase or Circle or Bitpay. They're two completely separate investments.

This is a company that will build hardware and software. It has engineers, management, marketing people, customer service, offices, warehouses, factories, supply chains. It has a product and it has costs. To invest in all of those costs to get exposure to the bitcoin price is ridiculous, again you either buy bitcoin directly, or you buy through a fund like I mentioned in my last post.

As for needing to be an expert in computer security to buy and store bitcoin, hardly, but that's another discussion.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#83

Post by vanzard »

sanswork wrote: post #77
mrb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chargebacks are just one of many methods that customers can use to maintain uprightness among merchants: legal actions (eg. small-claims courts), complaints to FTC or BBB, online reviews, etc.

None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness compared to just calling my credit card and having the charge reversed and the threat that I have the option to do that if they don't deal with my orders or issues appropriately.

> None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness

Does it matter? Some defrauded users WILL be persistent and WILL go through the effort of using these recourses, so they do keep merchants in check.

The fraud world is not as simplistic as you think it is ("oh crap customers can issue chargebacks against us, I guess we have to be honest now").

Fraudulent merchants will act fraudulently, regardless if chargebacks exist or not. Honest merchants will act honestly, regardless if chargebacks exist or not.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#84

Post by s73v3r »

mrb wrote: post #76
sanswork wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing most people who claim chargebacks are needed overlook is the impact the availability of chargebacks has on reducing the types of actions merchants take which might require one. The existence of the chargeback mechanism itself means merchants are more likely to ensure customer satisfaction to avoid them. That doesn't mean they aren't needed it could also mean they are incredibly effective at limited merchant…

Chargebacks are just one of many methods that customers can use to maintain uprightness among merchants: legal actions (eg. small-claims courts), complaints to FTC or BBB, online reviews, etc.

Legal action is far too time consuming and expensive, writing to the FTC or BBB is completely worthless as it will do absolutely nothing, and online reviews are limited in their ability to do anything, and might not have any impact.

A chargeback is simple, easy, and fast. And it puts the onus on the merchant to prove they didn't do anything wrong.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#85

Post by s73v3r »

vanzard wrote: post #83
sanswork wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness compared to just calling my credit card and having the charge reversed and the threat that I have the option to do that if they don't deal with my orders or issues appropriately.

> None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness Does it matter? Some defrauded users WILL be persistent and WILL go through the effort of using these recourses, so they do keep merchants in check. The fraud world is not as simplistic as you think it is ("oh crap customers can issue chargebacks against us, I guess we have to be honest now"). Fraudulent merchants will act fraudulently, regardles…

Yes, but at least I can be made whole from a fraudulent merchant in a timely manner with a chargeback. Not so for any of the other methods you mentioned.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#86

Post by sanswork »

vanzard wrote: post #83
sanswork wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness compared to just calling my credit card and having the charge reversed and the threat that I have the option to do that if they don't deal with my orders or issues appropriately.

> None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness Does it matter? Some defrauded users WILL be persistent and WILL go through the effort of using these recourses, so they do keep merchants in check. The fraud world is not as simplistic as you think it is ("oh crap customers can issue chargebacks against us, I guess we have to be honest now"). Fraudulent merchants will act fraudulently, regardles…

Yes it matters to me because the fact that some customers will do it won't actually matter in getting me my money back if there is a problem. The occasional customer going through the process of paying to take a merchant to small claims court(and if they are out of state it will be a considerable expense) isn't going to stop fraud or problems like the one below it will just cause the merchants to pay those specific customers off.

The problem isn't just out right fraud. Say you come to my online store and buy something. My warehouse screws up and doesn't ship it but they list in the system they have. You call up in a week and say "Wheres by foo" and I say "We shipped it". With chargebacks I am encouraged to go investigate and solve the problem. Without I am encouraged to trust my system.

Or say I sell you tickets to an event. For whatever reason I go bankrupt before the event can exist. With a credit card I'm still getting my money back. Without chargebacks I'm boned.

So then you say "Well only use trusted merchants like Amazon!" which is great if you want to centralize all commerce on the internet to one provider per vertical but not really ideal.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#87

Post by vanzard »

sanswork wrote: post #86
vanzard wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness Does it matter? Some defrauded users WILL be persistent and WILL go through the effort of using these recourses, so they do keep merchants in check. The fraud world is not as simplistic as you think it is ("oh crap customers can issue chargebacks against us, I guess we have to be honest now"). Fraudulent merchants will act fraudulently, regardles…

Yes it matters to me because the fact that some customers will do it won't actually matter in getting me my money back if there is a problem. The occasional customer going through the process of paying to take a merchant to small claims court(and if they are out of state it will be a considerable expense) isn't going to stop fraud or problems like the one below it will just cause the merchants to pay those specific c…

> it won't actually matter in getting me my money back

You aren't answering my point. Your argument was that we need the threat of chargebacks to make merchants more likely to ensure customer satisfaction. I told you that other threats like legal action are sufficient to keep the pressure on merchants to remain honest. For example a merchant repeatedly taken to court will eventually be shut down, or maybe fined sufficiently that it will eat his profits so he will be enticed to be more honest.

> Without I am encouraged to trust my system

If customers threaten to go to court or report you to the FTC/BBB I can ensure you you will be encouraged to go investigate too.

> So then you say "Well only use trusted merchants like Amazon!"

I am not asking for change. People already do it. They already use trusted merchants (mostly). This was the central point stated at the beginnig of this thread: "most merchants are honest, most disputes are resolved without chargebacks. Therefore chargebacks aren't really that needed or that important for most transactions." So yeah for the 1% of cases where you think the merchant might be fraudulent use Bitcoin with escrow, or a credit card, or cash-on-delivery, or whatever. For the other 99% a standard non-escrowed Bitcoin transaction is acceptable.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#88

Post by sanswork »

vanzard wrote: post #87
sanswork wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it matters to me because the fact that some customers will do it won't actually matter in getting me my money back if there is a problem. The occasional customer going through the process of paying to take a merchant to small claims court(and if they are out of state it will be a considerable expense) isn't going to stop fraud or problems like the one below it will just cause the merchants to pay those specific c…

> it won't actually matter in getting me my money back You aren't answering my point. Your argument was that we need the threat of chargebacks to make merchants more likely to ensure customer satisfaction. I told you that other threats like legal action are sufficient to keep the pressure on merchants to remain honest. For example a merchant repeatedly taken to court will eventually be shut down, or maybe fined suffi…

But you're ignoring the difficulty and worthlessness of these actions. If the company isn't local going to small claims becomes expensive so despite threats almost no one will do it. FTC/BBB does nothing unless there is obvious widespread fraud and how long will a resolution take for you?

>If customers threaten to go to court or report you to the FTC/BBB I can ensure you you will be encouraged to go investigate too.

No you're encouraged to wait until they actually go through the process of taking action then if its cheaper resolve it.

You keep saying most merchants are honest which I agree with but honesty isn't the only reason for charge backs as I mentioned.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#89

Post by vanzard »

sanswork wrote: post #88
vanzard wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it won't actually matter in getting me my money back You aren't answering my point. Your argument was that we need the threat of chargebacks to make merchants more likely to ensure customer satisfaction. I told you that other threats like legal action are sufficient to keep the pressure on merchants to remain honest. For example a merchant repeatedly taken to court will eventually be shut down, or maybe fined suffi…

But you're ignoring the difficulty and worthlessness of these actions. If the company isn't local going to small claims becomes expensive so despite threats almost no one will do it. FTC/BBB does nothing unless there is obvious widespread fraud and how long will a resolution take for you? >If customers threaten to go to court or report you to the FTC/BBB I can ensure you you will be encouraged to go investigate too.…

Filing a complaint to the FTC or BBB is no more difficult than filing a credit card dispute. In both cases you merely supply evidence of the fraud.

But I am not claiming a legal action is as likely as a chargeback to make the customer whole. I am claiming a legal action works just as well as a chargeback to put pressure on merchants to keep them honest.

> honesty isn't the only reason for charge backs

What other reasons? Illegal charges after theft of credit card billing information? I would say this is an argument for Bitcoin since using Bitcoin makes impossible for the merchant to steal or lose your billing information :) So what other reasons for a chargeback are you thinking about?

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#90

Post by sanswork »

vanzard wrote: post #89
sanswork wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're ignoring the difficulty and worthlessness of these actions. If the company isn't local going to small claims becomes expensive so despite threats almost no one will do it. FTC/BBB does nothing unless there is obvious widespread fraud and how long will a resolution take for you? >If customers threaten to go to court or report you to the FTC/BBB I can ensure you you will be encouraged to go investigate too.…

Filing a complaint to the FTC or BBB is no more difficult than filing a credit card dispute. In both cases you merely supply evidence of the fraud. But I am not claiming a legal action is as likely as a chargeback to make the customer whole. I am claiming a legal action works just as well as a chargeback to put pressure on merchants to keep them honest. > honesty isn't the only reason for charge backs What other reas…

>Filing a complaint to the FTC or BBB is no more difficult than filing a credit card dispute. In both cases you merely supply evidence of the fraud.

And then what? What happens to get my money back? What evidence do I have of fraud if its just a shipping dispute and their word against mine?

>What other reasons?

I gave you other reasons above and neither were illegal charges. Mistakes, and disruptions in the continuance of the company to name two.

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