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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#231

Post by cmsj »

angersock wrote: post #190
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

Thirding what my sibling commenters are saying, just for the additional data point. The article was about hackers , the set of outcasts that self-identify based on rough consensus and running code and merit. The article wasn't about hackers , the buzzword that is good to have on your meetup and LinkedIn profile. Such is the extent of the appropriation of hacker culture--there is this weird notion that workplace profe…

In general: If you're an outcast and you don't ostracise yourself from a community that has grown large, you are not really an outcast.

In detail: Hackers can't complain that their movement has grown and developed facets they don't like. Hackers are mischievous, hackers are smart, hackers are always ahead of the pack discovering and inventing cool new things. Therefore, hackers, by their very self-definition, can't be called hackers anymore, they must have moved on elsewhere and developed new labels for themselves. If they haven't, and have become complacent and jaded with newcomers, they have ceased to be true hackers.

(I use "they", because one should never self-apply the term hacker :)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#232

Post by throwaway9324 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #160
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel…

The article presents a huge falsification of history. I dare to say that most of the technical development was made by people who doesn't fit into the narrow definition of "nerd" as presented.

The impression I got when I got started in technology two decades ago was that being weird was accepted because we all liked technology. Not that you had to be weird to like technology. Heck, today you don't even have to like technology. Just know the right cultural-references and you're in.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#233

Post by mrgriscom »

eaton wrote: post #138
hueving wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some scumbag got a guy fired by publicly shaming him on twitter for making a joke to his friend in a private conversation. That is one of the most hostile, weird, and hateful ways I've ever seen someone behave. It's a perfect example of counter-productive, oppressive behavior that was outlined in this article. Do you think getting that guy fired is going to suddenly change his sense of humor? Not likely. If anything,…

> Some scumbag got a guy fired by publicly shaming him on twitter for making a joke to his friend in a private conversation. That is one of the most hostile, weird, and hateful ways I've ever seen someone behave. A conference attendee overheard another conference attendee making dick jokes in a public space at a conference, violating the terms of the CoC that he'd agreed to before attending. She reported him and post…

You agree to a Code of Conduct like you agree to an EULA

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#234

Post by TeMPOraL »

cmsj wrote: post #228
TeMPOraL wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We asked for this, whether we like it or not :) Yes, unfortunately we did. We dreamed for an amazing world, but it's not what we got when the world joined in.

I think we got an amazing world :) We democratised technology. We built a global IP network-of-networks and used it to connect a UNIX-like kernel in everyone's pocket, in a way that serves and delights them. I distinctly remember a large family gathering in summer 2010 where I expected the usual pattern of sitting in a corner of the garden with the handful of other techie cousins, discussing whatever was new in our w…

Thank you for your comment and your perspective. You literally just made me smile and feel very warm feelings inside.

Yes, this is the amazing world we wanted. :).

> Have some of the complex technical things that I once held as "mine" become dulled by the need to serve the masses? Of course. If that annoys me from a philosophical or technical perspective, my best choice is to forge ahead again and find a niche equivalent, or build something for myself.

> In many cases, I welcome it, because something that I once had to invest time and effort into, is now smoothed over and shifts into the background, making time for me to focus on something else.

Here you captured what I never could in words, so again - thank you. It's exactly what I feel - as cool tech I held as "mine" became mainstream, it also became dulled. I know it's an irrational feeling, but I do have it. But as you say, the best thing to do is to move on, find a new frontier, a new niche, and live there, until it again becomes common, and you can go even further. That is the beauty of progress!

Thinking more about it, I realize you're right. We have that amazing world. But with it, unfortunately, we once again exposed ourselves to the people who reject us and want to bully us. I'm not sure what to do about it. Should I escape even further, into another niche, one that hasn't been tainted by the culture of dishonesty and signalling games yet? It's getting harder and harder, because now everything is on the Internet, and the bullies move at the speed of light.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#235

Post by Terr_ »

angersock wrote: post #21
Terr_ wrote: post #5

> When weird nerds watch the cool kids jockeying for social position on Twitter, we see no difference between these status games and the ones we opted out of in high school. [...] “corporate culture” that’s as loudly promoted and roughly as genuine as the “school spirit” These bits resonated with me more than I had expected. The declaration "life is not like high school" is only partially true. College offers a tempo…

The fact that we even have a collective shared-ideal of "we judge you by your work" is an achievement worth celebrating and continuing, even if we individually fail at it, or even fail at it a lot. And that's the problem I've got with a bunch of the attacks I'll commonly see that are based on privilege: the entire idea is that "well, no, that cool hack doesn't count somehow, because you're a member of $MALIGNED_GROUP…

> the attacks I'll commonly see that are based on privilege

I'm going to make a small U-turn here (or if you prefer, be a devils-advocate) in favor of the privilege-focused-view, because when I owe allegiance to "good code", by extension I have to support good arguments that are "rhetorical code".

The version without obvious bugs goes something like this: "Yes, those people created awesome works, but they also had better access to resources, development tools, and teams of similar people."

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#236

Post by Kalium »

modfodder wrote: post #61
pekk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't convince you, and it doesn't matter whether you believe me, when I say that it doesn't matter to me about your race or sex or whatever, I am still going to think your cool hack is a cool hack. That's just how it is. I know not everyone does work this way. But I think it's counterproductive to try to tear down and erase this entire value system. In the worst case it's an imperfectly met ideal, but that's no re…

I will absolutely believe you. I will take your word until your actions show me otherwise. What value system is being destroyed or abandoned? Surely not one where a person is judged by merit and not by what group they do or don't belong to. At least not by me or anyone I've ever heard about. Now there are people that are trying to destroy the value system that professes to be based on merit but is in reality based on…

Just because it's less than the perfect meritocracy we would like does not mean we wish to tear it all down. As most software engineers learn, perfect is the enemy of better.

Might I suggest you re-read the article? This point is addressed.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#237

Post by jlouis »

tedks wrote: post #191
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

It's definitely spot-on. I think it has a great example of anti-feminist/male-privileged mindset: > Desire for civility and freedom from objectification is "censorship" > Wanting to not support misogynists/rape apologists/rape denialists/sexual predators is worse than the soviets > My fear of social ostracism is as or more valid than your fear of being raped > My chosen "identities" are as important as the assigned s…

I think your point is discrete by creating a dichotomy in which you are either "right" or "wrong" while i'd err on the side of "the world is more complicated than it looks".

You can't really win, but slowly morph the world from one view to another. In the process, your perception of what is right or wrong changes and thus, the terminal position is never the one you initially expected.

One thing I'm willing to bet on is that any extreme position will be seen as wrong 50 years from now on. The hive mind of the western global village might sway 180 degrees, like it did on the question of race in the 20th century. From genes to apology. But the "intellectual" belief about race is perhaps still as wrong as ever, and we understand comparatively little about its position in society.

Likewise, we don't have any clue how the human mind is affected by being closely connected through the internet. Or for the fact that the private individual was eradicated for the public group. Or for the total persistence of information from every human being connected via IP-addresses to everyone else in the ultimate peer-to-peer network ever envisioned.

It is so easy to blame someone as a reactionary who won't understand the position to which the world moved. But reality is perhaps that they have seen things oblivious to everyone else.

In other words, I think the human society is so complex we don't really understand how little we understand of it.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#238

Post by spiritplumber »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #226
spiritplumber wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I moved to "maker" if I absolutely have to pick a one-word label. So it goes.

I was and still am involved in the "maker culture" thing and from what I see, the term "maker" is already dead as well. Media found it, it became a popular label, and now everyone who knows which side of duct tape is sticky is a "maker". And don't get me started about the events. What do startups showcasing their newest commercial 3D printers have to do with "making" again?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-dept-of-retro-warns-we-m... Appropriate onion article if you change some nouns :) Can't disagree with you, sadly.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#239

Post by [deleted] »

some_furry wrote: post #185
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. To you, it's a job. To me, it's one of my many hobbies that I enjoy doing. It just turns out that there's more demand in the business world for software engineering than there is for admiring artwork of anthropomorphic creatures or swinging swords around.

[deleted]

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#240

Post by misuba »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #201
misuba wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, by your own admission, you just don't like something, you can't claim that "who [you] really are" is being "destroyed" if you're taught how to avoid injury in dealing with it. Your pet peeves are not a part of you.

It's not really a pet peeve, it's a difference in thinking and perceiving the world.

The point is, how do you know the difference between something that's "who you really are" and something that you simply feel discomfort around being asked to change?
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