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End the Ethanol Rip-Off

nytimes.com

111–120 of 155 posts

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#111
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of corn produced in the United States is used for cattle feed (and the rest for things like HFCS.) If you think it's crazy to burn edible food in a car, it's about as crazy to use it to fuel cow metabolism. You could feed way more people if you ate the corn, but as it turns out, U.S. industrial corn production is pretty much for anything but eating.

Not to mention the greenhouse footprint of cattle farming. You can't really feed more people -- at least in the US -- because we already consume food in quantities that are arguably toxic. But you could turn the corn fields over to other kinds of crops. Disclaimer: I eat meat, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 pound a week.

It's hard to say what the footprint of cattle farming really is. Each side ( and oh boy are there sides ) cherry picks their own figures.

I know that in Texas, the biggest reason people let family land that could be used for cow-farming go is taxation - there are Land Trusts that allow you to keep nominal control of the land while agreeing never to use it productively again, to get a tax abatement.

Also, the lyrics to James McMurty's "South Dakota" from the new record are really interesting on this subject.

I mean - we call noodging "eat your vegetables". I like vegetables just fine, but I like meat, too. I doubt the results of any of the analyses since anybody who gets paid to do the work will probably be biased by who pays them.

And the biggest receivers of any sort of subsidy - precious California water included - are veggie farmers. Using acres of Western Kansas for grazing seems pretty low-impact relative to that.

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#112
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon the pun, but your complaints are incredibly rarified. No one's having a steak party, they're eating burgers and tacos in between their long shifts because of lack of fresh produce and time to cook it.

The government cannot subsidize fresh produce instead of the beef industry?

They do. Heavily.

There is an argument that says the Central Valley of California farmers basically funded Reagan's White House run in 1980. Carter was going after payments for all that water...

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#113

This article directly contradicts my understanding of some key points. For example, does the production of corn ethanol really increase food prices? I was under the impression that the US overproduces so much corn that the farmers were specifically getting tax credits to produce less of it. Also, is growing and harvesting this corn (taking out the final burning of ethanol out of it for a moment) a net positive or neg…

From the perspective of global warming, all that matters is the net contribution of carbon dioxide from fossil fuels to the atmosphere. The reason oil companies object to the Renewable Fuel Standard is that it results in lower net usage of oil. If it resulted in higher net oil usage, they wouldn't oppose it. So that answers your question.

No, that isn't all that matters. I outlined the other factors that matter in my original comment. Wouldn't you agree that fracking also contributes to global warming? Or that fermenting corn does? What matters is the net total. If all that mattered was CO2 from oil, it would be an easy problem: get rid of oil, use ethanol. Thing is CO2 is the same, whether it comes from oil, ethanol, coal burning power plants, or cow manure. What matters is the net emissions.

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#114
post #14
post #2

I'm surprised and happy to see this in the Times. It's a good idea to avoid ethanol gas, on principle if for no other reason. Processing edible food to burn in your car (with all the implied market consequences) is kinda crazy. Here's a good resource if you're looking for ethanol-free gas in the US and Canada: http://pure-gas.org

The majority of corn produced in the United States is used for cattle feed (and the rest for things like HFCS.) If you think it's crazy to burn edible food in a car, it's about as crazy to use it to fuel cow metabolism. You could feed way more people if you ate the corn, but as it turns out, U.S. industrial corn production is pretty much for anything but eating.

It's not like we're really short on food.

People worldwide who can't eat, can't eat because they live in something like a failed state. If you can't have enough stability to be on the global finance network, you're left pretty far behind.

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#115
post #45
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does the production of corn ethanol really increase food prices? It might be hard to determine. But here's an anecdote, the price of short ribs has dramatically gone up. My wife is Korean, so short ribs (galbi) are a favorite dish. We used to be able to buy several pounds of ribs, a huge pile of them, for $20-30. They were so cheap, and there were so many of them, and the way they were packaged was in such large pa…

Beef prices have gone up a LOT in recent years, but ethanol-related corn price increases is only a part of the reason. Slightly increased domestic demand due to economic recovery, as well as very large increases in foreign demand due to economic development, combined with the fact that supply was trimmed back during the recession, are also big parts of the equation.

The supply was semi-decimated because of drought. The price rises are better correlated with drought than recovery.

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#116

This article directly contradicts my understanding of some key points. For example, does the production of corn ethanol really increase food prices? I was under the impression that the US overproduces so much corn that the farmers were specifically getting tax credits to produce less of it. Also, is growing and harvesting this corn (taking out the final burning of ethanol out of it for a moment) a net positive or neg…

From the perspective of global warming, all that matters is the net contribution of carbon dioxide from fossil fuels to the atmosphere. The reason oil companies object to the Renewable Fuel Standard is that it results in lower net usage of oil. If it resulted in higher net oil usage, they wouldn't oppose it. So that answers your question.

There is no "oil company" that is purely interested in maintaining oil demand. It's all services except for the actual leaseholders. There may be consortia that are interested, but they are of limited ability to influence policy.

Post-2008, demand for oil has dropped without recovering, yet the cash flows of oil firms have remained strong ( it remains to be seen what comes of the big price drop ).

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#117
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not good for plastic gas tanks either.

Since ethanol has been a part of fuel for many decades, the vast majority of auto parts today are fine with ethanol. There are exceptions, like the Ducati gas tanks, but by and large ethanol is not a problem in any fuel-injected vehicle.

As the owner of 3 ducatis, a snow blower, and a generator... when ethanol gas sits around for a while it does awful awful things:( Fuel stabilizers help a little, but the only way to REALLY make things work is to either run the engines at LEAST once a week all year, or to fully drain everything, and then deal with another sort of hassle when you need the generator running immediately..

While my car runs the ethenolized gas okay, it kills me knowing that I'm losing HP/efficiency just due to corn subsidies:(

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#118
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E85 is SO far from "essentially race gas". It has much LOWER energy density than non-ethanol gas. It takes 1.39 gallons of E85 to have the same energy as 1 gallon of conventional dino juice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent The only way to get more power with E85 is to have some sort of extreme engine running INSANE amounts of turbo boost, like the Koenesegg CCXR. In a normal street car any lev…

"Race gas" is commonly understood to refer to octane number. E85 is 94-96 octane, according to wikipedia, which enables you to run higher compression or higher boost. The fact that it has lower energy density just means you burn more of it, so your tank runs out faster. It has nothing to do with the power you can get out of the engine.

If E85 has ~40% less energy in it per volume/weight, then you'd need to be pushing ~40% MORE fuel in the same timeframe to break even on power, right? So you'd need the octane jump from 91/93 to to 94-96 to allow you to run enough extra boost to burn 40% more fuel per cycle. Assuming your turbo/supercharger can deliver 40% more pressure without a big drop in efficiency. And you need your fuel injectors and fuel pump to be able to push 40% more than previous peak numbers. Just to break even. Right? I don't see a 1-5 octane jump buying you enough extra boost to even break even... Maybe with aftermarket turbos, FP, injectors, etc...?

I've done a lot of work with turbo charged cars, but I'm not an expert, so i could be wrong here... I'd rather just buy real race gas or mix toluene than mess with E85...

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#119
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a time when people didn't eat meat with every meal. Yeah. There was also a time when 8-year-olds did a full day's work in the mines and malnourishment was the norm. You should think about the complexity involved in eating a healthy vegetarian diet before you start being dismissive of it. Meat is easier in some significant ways.

You're putting words in his mouth. He never said to not eat meat. He said not to eat it at every meal. You don't need to eat sausage and bacon at breakfast, a rack of ribs and half a chicken at lunch, and a 1/2 lb steak at supper to get your daily intake of meat-provided nutrients. The sad truth is that far too many people eat meat at every single meal, and it's just not natural for us. Balance.

Don't confuse availability with what is "natural". Eating (lean) meat at every meal is quite natural and has been common in some societies where it was plentiful.

Re: End the Ethanol Rip-Off

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flex Fuel Vehicles are a thing in the United States too; but only up to 85% ethanol. One of my vehicles will run on E85, but since it would cost more and is not as available as regular gasoline, there is no real reason to use it.

Do people actually use it? Is there ever a reason to use it? It costs 5% less but is 25% less efficient.

Custom tuned turbos (eg. Evo and STi's) can get tremendous output on E85; that's the only use I've seen of it.
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