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Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

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Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#51

Post by jheriko »

glesica wrote: post #47
jheriko wrote: post #46

i'm in two minds about this. on the one hand, this is evolution in action, the habitat for this animal was decreased by the presence of a successful predator. on the other, rats have no sympathy from me, and we have plenty of them around, so why not wipe them out to allow insects to flourish? somehow killing a bunch of rats to allow a failed species to reclaim its territory seems wrong. so i lean towards letting this…

But it wasn't natural competition, we brought the rats there. I guess you can argue that the actions of humans are just as "natural" as any others. However, I think this is a very foolish way of looking at the situation because we act based on intelligence, not instinct. Competition only "works" when everyone is playing by the same rules. This means that we throw off the equilibrium for the rest of the planet because…

its not just that we brought the rats there, its that rats are so well adapted to being transported by people that they spread with us and succeed in diverse habitats.

keeping that island rat free is going to be a constant battle, because rats are so good at spreading by using our transportation as a vector.

like i say, i'm in two minds... i do think its incredibly sad to wipe out a species by introducing another like this. we lose something really special and unique. i just can't give equal weight to the argument because its so flooby dooby and driven by emotion rather than sensiblity.

also, i don't think we play by different rules... we classically out compete every other species in almost every habitat. we are the pinnacle of evolution today. the fallout of our actions are nature in action, despite the temptation to treat humans with some special place of privilege in the natural order of things... that being said, our alturism is part of that success, and is ultimately the source for the feeling argument.

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#52

Post by pvaldes »

pvaldes wrote: post #38
bpodgursky wrote: post #2

What I don't fully understand is, usually when scientists try to preserve rare species, there is a critical mass under which there isn't enough genetic diversity to preserve the species (I've seen ~30 quoted for some rare mammals). But in this case, just two individuals were able to start a viable population. Why are these insects different? I can only think of a couple reasons... - since these insects have a r-selec…

Are different in a "parthenogenetic way". They can clone itselves if necessary. Thus, a single isolated female can lead to an unlimited population of females, all of them genetically identical to its mother, grand-mother etc. It seems that the species is not very worried with the idea of living with a low level of genetic combinations (and mutations can still occur increasing slowly the genetic diversity). great post…

well, It seems that parthenogenesis is not still confirmed in this species. Is frequent among stick insects in any case.

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#53

Post by barrkel »

goodcanadian wrote: post #43
aetherson wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I grew up in California, not even remotely rat free, and I think I've seen... three-ish... rats in my nearly 40 years? Besides pets or lab animals. Rats hide. Doesn't mean there aren't a fairly large number of them around.

OK. I grew up on a farm where I saw plenty of mice and other wildlife that is known for hiding. I never saw a rat nor any evidence of a rat. EDITED to add: We had cats which killed mice and gophers and birds and voles and all sorts of creatures. I NEVER saw a rat. I know it is hard to believe, but Alberta really is (at least mostly) rat free.

Rats are the one pest that are almost unafraid of humans. Once upon a time, I lived in a wooden cabin that rats had found a way into, via holes cut in the floor for pipes by the kitchen sink.

Late in the evening, one would pop up. I could get up to chase it away, but it wouldn't flee until I got close, and it would pop out again a few seconds later. It knew it could out-wait me and there was little I could do to stop it that night. Trying to block the hole merely meant they ate away the wood around the hole, until they could get back in again.

Mice aren't a problem at all. You don't want rats.

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#54

Post by [deleted] »

Mz wrote: post #50
grondilu wrote: post #25

I'm all for preserving endangered species and all, but frankly these insects scare the hell out of me and if I was anywhere close to one of them I may run away, screaming like a little girl. I believe I'm not very exceptional a person thus I suspect they'll have difficulties convincing people to have this species reintroduced on any inhabited island.

Lordy. I am so sorry your "scream like a little girl" remark is getting so much negative notice from people. This "sexism in language" derail is totally irrelevant to the topic and I don't think it does anything to help actual sexism in STEM or anything like that.

[deleted]

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#55

Post by Mz »

[deleted] wrote: post #54
Mz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lordy. I am so sorry your "scream like a little girl" remark is getting so much negative notice from people. This "sexism in language" derail is totally irrelevant to the topic and I don't think it does anything to help actual sexism in STEM or anything like that.

[deleted]

I usually cannot crack a joke here. My humor is insufficiently dry and I am a demographic outlier on multiple axes (including being female). But sometimes humor works here.

I think the issue here is that sexism in STEM is a huge hot-button topic. I guess I am just a bit annoyed that I posted a good article on it and that is being ignored, but, boy, howdy, can folks pile on to this inane derail as if your comment on how freaked out these bugs would make you is some huge sexism in STEM hill to die on.

Priorities. (rolls eyes)

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#56

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

jheriko wrote: post #51
glesica wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it wasn't natural competition, we brought the rats there. I guess you can argue that the actions of humans are just as "natural" as any others. However, I think this is a very foolish way of looking at the situation because we act based on intelligence, not instinct. Competition only "works" when everyone is playing by the same rules. This means that we throw off the equilibrium for the rest of the planet because…

its not just that we brought the rats there, its that rats are so well adapted to being transported by people that they spread with us and succeed in diverse habitats. keeping that island rat free is going to be a constant battle, because rats are so good at spreading by using our transportation as a vector. like i say, i'm in two minds... i do think its incredibly sad to wipe out a species by introducing another lik…

We are special though. How many species can simply alter an environment so that it can live somewhere that would otherwise be uninhabitable by it?

Now seeing that we're already altering our environment however we want, why not alter it back? Especially if you consider humans to be playing by the same rules. In that light, who cares about the rats? We out competed them, we'll alter things in ways that please us.

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#57

Post by marcosdumay »

jheriko wrote: post #46

i'm in two minds about this. on the one hand, this is evolution in action, the habitat for this animal was decreased by the presence of a successful predator. on the other, rats have no sympathy from me, and we have plenty of them around, so why not wipe them out to allow insects to flourish? somehow killing a bunch of rats to allow a failed species to reclaim its territory seems wrong. so i lean towards letting this…

Killing the rats is also evolution in action. In fact, anything that happen to the island, done by people or not, good or not is evolution in action.

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#58

Post by pyre »

ars wrote: post #44
eric_h wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you never heard a little girl scream? It's not the same as the sound of a little boy. I disagree, all little humans learn how to make that piercing scream often attributed to little girls. Little boys will likely do it less as they begin to be socialized and thus wedged into gender roles, but they definitely do "scream like little girls".

> I disagree, all little humans learn how to make that piercing scream often attributed to little girls. You apparently don't actually know any little boys and girls because their screams sound nothing alike. Boys do manage a nice scream, but it doesn't sound the same, especially past the age of 3. > Little boys will likely do it less as they begin to be socialized and thus wedged into gender roles Again with this no…

> Next you'll tell me people aren't born knowing what gender they are, but rather it's "socialized" into them.

That just depends on what you mean by gender. There are many things around gender that are social constructs. For example, pink being a "feminine" colour. Do you believe that DNA encodes females to prefer pink[1]?

[1] http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297159948/girls-are-taught-to-...

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#59

Post by jschwartzi »

ufo wrote: post #12
uiri wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article touches on this a little bit, I think. Eve's eggs were harvested, incubated (though it turns out only the first 30 were fertile) and became the foundation of the zoo's new population of walking sticks. I am not a real biologist, but I suspect it is some combination of the factors you suggest and that their genome may be simple enough that most defects make the eggs nonviable.

Insects also have complex genomes. The egg fertility most likely has to do with other issues (differences between the natural habitat and captivity, maybe there is a natural tendency for not all eggs to be fertile, etc)

I wonder if the infertile eggs are a sort of decoy? Those eggs look like they might be large enough to make an attractive meal for a bird.

Re: Six-Legged Giant Finds Secret Hideaway, Hides for 80 Years (2012)

#60

Post by jheriko »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #56
jheriko wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not just that we brought the rats there, its that rats are so well adapted to being transported by people that they spread with us and succeed in diverse habitats. keeping that island rat free is going to be a constant battle, because rats are so good at spreading by using our transportation as a vector. like i say, i'm in two minds... i do think its incredibly sad to wipe out a species by introducing another lik…

We are special though. How many species can simply alter an environment so that it can live somewhere that would otherwise be uninhabitable by it? Now seeing that we're already altering our environment however we want, why not alter it back? Especially if you consider humans to be playing by the same rules. In that light, who cares about the rats? We out competed them, we'll alter things in ways that please us.

some of the very first and most basic life, algae, completely transformed the atmosphere of the entire planet and continue to have the dominant effect on it, in ways that dwarf the human impact on it in recent times, we do not consider them special for the scale of their effect...

but yes, you are right about altering it back. this is why our altruism and the 'feeling' argument has more merit than logically it should. (for me)

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