Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play • Hacker News Board

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#61

Post by venaoy » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 10:19 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #57

venaoy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a CC sure I might have to grab the card out of my wallet and punch it in, but my numbers are pretty much memorized by now and it's beyond simple. "beyond simple", really? A lot of people would disagree with you. The inconvenience of typing in the CC billing info is the number one reason why fewer sales take place on mobile than on desktop. And it is one of the main reasons why people stick with a store they kno…

I'm not sure you are me are using the same definition of simple. Typing 16 digits plus four digits on the front and three digits from the back of a card in your pocket is incredibly simple. I just described it in one short declarative sentence. In addition it is mildly tedious, and slightly inconvenient. But extremely simple it remains. In contrast, bitcoin requires typing in an extremely long and essentially random…

> I just described it in one short declarative sentence.

Except you forgot: you have to type the expiration date, the cardholder's name, and sometimes the full billing address. I will repeat again: typing the CC billing info is not simple enough and this is the number one reason e-commerce sales conducted on mobile are not as high as sales conducted on the desktop.

> bitcoin requires typing

No. It sounds like you have never made a Bitcoin purchase. Typically the merchant's site launches your local wallet app via a "bitcoin:" URI pre-populated with an address and an amount -> click OK to confirm transaction -> done.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#62

Post by Apofis » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 10:33 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #11

dollaaron wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are proposals to allow pruning the blockchain, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. To guarantee a transaction goes through you have to wait for it to be confirmed, but most transactions really aren't that important/high risk, so beyond checking that the address does actually have the money, it's instantaneous. Many payment processors (I know Bitpay has this option) actually take the 0 confirmation t…

> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitco…

I run an E-Commerce shop, with inexpensive products and I get fraudulent purchases all the time. If I don't detect a fraudulent transaction, ship the product, when the chargeback comes in not only am I out of the money, I'm out of the product as well. Losing over 200% on that transaction, plus there's usually associated chargeback fees that could be $35-70. Credit Cards are shit for retailers.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#63

Post by jafaku » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 10:37 PM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #33

comrade1 wrote: post #3

Are there ways to reduce the size of the block chain? Or will we get to the point where only large service providers can hold the block chain? I ask because I was maintaining my own wallet for awhile but stopped because the block chain database was getting unwieldy - it would take up to a week to resync if I ever turned my wallet software off for a significant amount of time. You know though... I actually don't care.…

I'm in India and I can't even buy it easily. Paypal hates it, as does India's Reserve Bank. Too much effort for too little reward. Right now, the only thing I'd actually want to buy with BTC is illegal stuff off the darknet. There is virtually nothing else I need that bad that normal cash can't do.

> Paypal hates it, as does India's Reserve Bank.

I can't believe this doesn't immediately make you think that maybe, just maybe there is something good about Bitcoin. Are you 0K with the central bank stealing wealth from you and your family through the debasing of your currency? Are you 0K with working your ass off so that bankers and other powerful people can live a life of wealth and pleasure? How can you take advise from such people?

"Bitcoin is bad, don't use it! It's a drug currency... very shady... also, terrorism!"

That is basically what every central bank said to the people in their country.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#64

Post by s73v3r » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 10:39 PM UTC

venaoy wrote: post #48

CPLX wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code, than to take out your credit card, transcribe a 16 digit number, check the expiration date, and enter the CSC (or is it CVC?). > Sure, for websites where your information is already saved, or if you leave all your credit card information saved in the browser, then this isn't easier, but they're still pretty comparable in my opinion. Even if it wa…

> For a CC sure I might have to grab the card out of my wallet and punch it in, but my numbers are pretty much memorized by now and it's beyond simple. "beyond simple", really? A lot of people would disagree with you. The inconvenience of typing in the CC billing info is the number one reason why fewer sales take place on mobile than on desktop. And it is one of the main reasons why people stick with a store they kno…

One of the reasons I stick with Amazon is, yes, they have my payment info saved. But they also have other things like Amazon Prime, and their reputation. People don't stick with Amazon just because they have payment info saved. They trust Amazon is going to keep their info secure, and if they're unhappy with the purchase, Amazon is going to make them whole.

I don't have that trust and security using Bitcoin with a site I've never used before. I don't know if the site is on the up and up, or if they'll just take my BTC and run.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#65

Post by jafaku » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #52

jboggan wrote: post #6

What percentage of that funding is just buying and holding Bitcoins? Many of these large rounds have that business model baked into the amount they raise. There's much more profit to be had from buying at current prices and selling at a consumer inflection point than there is in actually building a Bitcoin service.

It's idiotic to assume an investor will invest in a company to buy coins, rather than coins directly. Maybe if it was expensive art, exotic animals or something difficult and tricky to buy and store without having specialized knowledge, yes then you'd invest in a company to buy and manage these assets. But storing bitcoin is storing private keys... a password. Anyone can buy it and store it. Hell you can even buy it…

It's not idiotic, that's why there is a Bitcoin fund, and soon there will be a Bitcoin ETF.

If being an expert in computer security isn't "specialized knowledge", I don't know what it is.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#66

Post by venaoy » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 10:52 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #11

dollaaron wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are proposals to allow pruning the blockchain, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. To guarantee a transaction goes through you have to wait for it to be confirmed, but most transactions really aren't that important/high risk, so beyond checking that the address does actually have the money, it's instantaneous. Many payment processors (I know Bitpay has this option) actually take the 0 confirmation t…

> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitco…

You attach too much importance to CC chargeback mechanisms. I am a typical American consumer and in 20 years doing about 5,000 credit card transactions I have never had to issue a single chargeback at all. So I know for a fact that I would be willing to use Bitcoin for all its advantages if that meant giving up the ability to charge back. Consider this: credit card fees which are passed to customers by inflating prices by ~2% probably indirectly cost me north of $20,000 over my 20 years of use. I could have saved $20,000 and I would have been totally fine with the lack of chargeback mechanisms in Bitcoin. Even if I end up being scammed one day by a non-reversible $1000 Bitcoin transaction, I would still be $19,000 financially ahead with Bitcoin.

Also, CC chargebacks are far from being perfect. In many cases the customer has no recourse for fraud. For example you cannot chargeback a transaction made more than 60 days ago. Some fraudulent merchants stall shipping (eg. claim delays, issues, ship the wrong thing, etc) for 60 days specifically to exploit this fact and exploit the fact customers don't know about this 60-day chargeback limit. Or if your PIN code is stolen and a fraudulent transaction is made with the PIN code, you will typically be held liable (check your CC fine print, for example: "If your Password or PIN is used in such a transaction, you will be liable for the full debt" from http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_...)

Don't forget that despite the lack of chargebacks, you still have all the other usual recourses available to you if you are defrauded after paying in bitcoins: small court claims, send a complaint to the FTC or BBB, etc. But the fact chargeback mechanisms are rarely needed in the first place, and have various limitations (60-day, PIN stolen, etc) indicates that Bitcoin doesn't need them to be reasonably successful as a payment technology.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#67

Post by CPLX » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 10:53 PM UTC

Goronmon wrote: post #23

dollaaron wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code, than to take out your credit card, transcribe a 16 digit number, check the expiration date, and enter the CSC (or is it CVC?). Sure, for websites where your in…

>It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code These steps have nothing to do with BitCoin though. >a properly secured wallet is impossible to steal Define "properly secured wallet"? And whose responsible for securing wallets? "The consumer is responsible" is not the right answer.

> Define "properly secured wallet"

A properly secured wallet is a true Scotsman.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#68

Post by venaoy » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 11:08 PM UTC

s73v3r wrote: post #64

venaoy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a CC sure I might have to grab the card out of my wallet and punch it in, but my numbers are pretty much memorized by now and it's beyond simple. "beyond simple", really? A lot of people would disagree with you. The inconvenience of typing in the CC billing info is the number one reason why fewer sales take place on mobile than on desktop. And it is one of the main reasons why people stick with a store they kno…

One of the reasons I stick with Amazon is, yes, they have my payment info saved. But they also have other things like Amazon Prime, and their reputation. People don't stick with Amazon just because they have payment info saved. They trust Amazon is going to keep their info secure, and if they're unhappy with the purchase, Amazon is going to make them whole. I don't have that trust and security using Bitcoin with a si…

Your comment reveals something often overlooked by the crowd shouting "OMG Bitcoin doesn't have chargebacks". Most people shop from merchants they trust, most merchants are honest, most disputes are resolved without chargebacks. Therefore chargebacks aren't really that needed or that important for most transactions.

IOW: you would have no problem paying Amazon in bitcoins, because you trust them.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#69

Post by ajross » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 11:27 PM UTC

macns wrote: post #60

ajross wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? No, no, no. Cold storage is exactly as secure as the physical storage used to keep it. Unless that physical safe (or deposit box, or mattress) in which you put the printout or USB stick was launched on an interstellar rocket, then no. It's true that it's inaccessible to the internet. It's not true that it's more secure than physical storage, because ultimately it is physical storage. I await your "But you can m…

Well regarding bitcoin theory obviously you skimmed through the basics, but I'll make an effort to counter your arguments. A (public) bitcoin address is useless without the private key. Suppose you do find one, you'd just knew the transactions referring to it(by looking up the blockchain). One can easily have thousands of addresses. Many people generate a different address for each transaction, so good luck finding t…

I don't have the foggiest idea what you're on about. The subject was bitcoin "cold storage", which is the idea of storing the private keys to a walled offline, out of the reach of network-enabled attackers.

You're just saying that recovering a private key is mathematically hard, but that's not the attack vector in question. You still need to store the private key somewhere, and that storage is subject to attack. Network-attached storage is subject to lots of attacks, thus there's interest in storing this stuff offline.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#70

Post by kordless » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 11:28 PM UTC

softdev12 wrote: post #2

This is interesting because it's the first time I've heard about 21 and they have raised $116 million pre-launch. Given that companies who've raised an order of magnitude less are all over the news, it's surprising they have been so stealth. I'm also still not clear what 21 does. According to the article they are building out the blockchain into the internet of things (IoT). That sounds really vague. Plus, the articl…

They do if they allow you to do seamless software installs and payment chains. More than obvious, if you've been thinking about it.