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The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

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Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#121

Post by bediger4000 »

iak8god wrote: post #113
bediger4000 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think that "Well, Russia's Doing It!" is a very good justification for clearly unethical, and probably illegal, actions. The reason for mass surveillance is control of the populace. Mass surveillance clearly doesn't prevent terrorism: most of this 4th-Amendment-violating dragnet surveillance was in place well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs. So, I'm not a little torn, either:…

Do you think it is illegal or unethical for the CIA to just explore these capabilities, or to develop them and use them only in a targeted way, subject to appropriate oversight?

I'm not a Judge, I'm not even a lawyer (trained in the magical ways of USA law), but I doubt it's unethical for anyone to just explore the possible ways to subvert iOS or whatever. It might be illegal to explore those possibilities, if you're not one of the insiders (there's a difference in how David Petraeus was prosecuted, vs how Thomas Drake was prosecuted). Trying any particular method of subversion might end up unethical, or maybe even illegal, whether you're the CIA or Weev.

I do not believe that the CIA, as it seems to exist today, is capable of doing that manner of subversion in a targeted way, they have gone rogue. I do not think that the CIA allows itself to be overseen. That part of the question is just not possible to answer.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#122

Post by tajen »

iak8god wrote: post #113
bediger4000 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think that "Well, Russia's Doing It!" is a very good justification for clearly unethical, and probably illegal, actions. The reason for mass surveillance is control of the populace. Mass surveillance clearly doesn't prevent terrorism: most of this 4th-Amendment-violating dragnet surveillance was in place well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs. So, I'm not a little torn, either:…

Do you think it is illegal or unethical for the CIA to just explore these capabilities, or to develop them and use them only in a targeted way, subject to appropriate oversight?

Using "appropriate" and "oversight" in the same sentence is exactly what a smear campaign would be about.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#123

Post by flyryan »

appleflaxen wrote: post #83
exelius wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually somewhat torn on this. While I'm against mass surveillance, I think that targeted surveillance can be a good thing. By nature of it being targeted, it is expensive to use on more people than necessary. The kind of spying the CIA would enable through compromising Apple secrets would be restricted to high-value targets if for no other reason than to ensure none of their targets knew they had that capabilit…

Targeted surveillance... like a search warrant? Somehow we have been doing fine under the constitution for 200 years. Now a dozen men kamikaze a building, and we have to take away everyone's freedom in order to protect them? F that. Police and the executive branch are just being lazy. Get off your ass, do some human intelligence, investigate leads, and get a warrant if you have probable cause. Otherwise, get the hell…

The USA has never needed a search warrant to conduct foreign intelligence. A search warrant requirement is a 4th amendment protection afforded to US citizens. Foreign intelligence does not require courts unless you're trying to get foreign information from US companies (like the PRISM program and the FISA courts).

The FBI (who is responsible for all intelligence conducted in the USA, against foreigners or Americans) is absolutely required to get a search warrant.

The iPhone is one of the most popular phones in the world. Is it that crazy that the CIA is interested in them for intelligence gathering purposes?

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#124

Post by wahsd »

exelius wrote: post #55
p01926 wrote: post #15

How much longer can this continue? We have American agencies attacking American companies "because terrorism". It's been 13 years since our trauma, maybe now's the time to remove the razor blade from our wrists, look ourselves in the mirror and just carry on. Bad stuff is always going to be in our future — stuff that will increasingly appear preventable between the Internet and a lot of hindsight — but our current so…

I'm actually somewhat torn on this. While I'm against mass surveillance, I think that targeted surveillance can be a good thing. By nature of it being targeted, it is expensive to use on more people than necessary. The kind of spying the CIA would enable through compromising Apple secrets would be restricted to high-value targets if for no other reason than to ensure none of their targets knew they had that capabilit…

I could have written that myself, but the problem is that we really have a shadow government, one that is not accountable, not responsible, not regulated, and not in any way representative. If we were really interested in fixing this, we would hold the heinous people of the Bush administration (and even some if not most of the Obama administration) who were responsible for aiding and abetting "terrorism" by playing right into their goals, accountable for their treason through incompetence and stupidity and greed. No other people in the history of our country has ever caused us more damage than the Bush administration.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#125

Post by [deleted] »

Zelphyr wrote: post #64

As many have noted, this does need to stop but it won't. And the problem lies squarely with you and me. Try this experiment: Ask a group of 5-10 people around you to raise their hands if they've been pissed off at any branch or level of their government. Then ask them to keep their hands up if they've contacted their representatives about that issue. Finally, ask them if the method of contact they used was the phone…

[deleted]

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#126

Post by Intermernet »

tedunangst wrote: post #70
Intermernet wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have posted the wrong link there. It seems to be a link to @okasaki's comment, which doesn't seem to pertain to the issue you mentioned, and contains no links of it's own. I assume copypasta error? I'd still appreciate it if you have any links, as I'm trying to map out the various accusations and counter-accusations in the Snowden case. It's a good study in information warfare :-)

"this might be part of a PR campaign coordinated between the US govt and US tech companies" sounds like it pertains to the topic of people suspecting this to be PR, no?

The comment I was asking for references to was:

> Glenn Greenwald/Snowden is now suspected of doing PR for tech companies

Which is not

>a PR campaign coordinated between the US govt and US tech companies

Suspecting PR collusion yes, but on the wrong side.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#127

Post by mcantelon »

downandout wrote: post #50
MichaelGG wrote: post #41

Every time I read about a private company being targeted, I remember how simply state-level spies have been compromised. Hanssen[1], for instance, betrayed the CIA over 22 years, for just $1.4M. The info leaked included info on other agents, at least one who was executed. Or [2], Walker gave crypto info to decrypt Navy messages. For a few grand a month. There's plenty more listed even on Wikipedia. The amounts involv…

> Or, why is the NSA not getting to grads early on, helping their career, while having them really be agents all along? It would be naive to think that they (and other agencies around the world) aren't already doing this.

Yeah, I kind of assumed this was standard operating procedure, like Anderson Cooper's "internship" at the CIA.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#128

Post by a3n »

astrange wrote: post #114
a3n wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it would have any material effect. Most if not all hyper-corporations route transactions off-shore, and hold cash off-shore, specifically to drastically reduce the amount of tax they pay.

Apple is the #3 largest taxpayer in the US, and one of the few companies registered in California instead of Delaware.

No doubt. Nevertheless:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=apple+tax+ireland

The loophole(s) may have been closed, but I doubt Apple left them voluntarily.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#129

Post by appleflaxen »

flyryan wrote: post #123
appleflaxen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Targeted surveillance... like a search warrant? Somehow we have been doing fine under the constitution for 200 years. Now a dozen men kamikaze a building, and we have to take away everyone's freedom in order to protect them? F that. Police and the executive branch are just being lazy. Get off your ass, do some human intelligence, investigate leads, and get a warrant if you have probable cause. Otherwise, get the hell…

The USA has never needed a search warrant to conduct foreign intelligence. A search warrant requirement is a 4th amendment protection afforded to US citizens. Foreign intelligence does not require courts unless you're trying to get foreign information from US companies (like the PRISM program and the FISA courts). The FBI (who is responsible for all intelligence conducted in the USA, against foreigners or Americans)…

I'm fine with the legality foreign intelligence (even if I'm not sure it's the best policy). But what does that have to do with anything? The Snowden disclosures show that they're doing far, far, more: essentially indiscriminant eavesdropping of every possible form of domestic communication.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#130

Post by iak8god »

bediger4000 wrote: post #121
iak8god wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it is illegal or unethical for the CIA to just explore these capabilities, or to develop them and use them only in a targeted way, subject to appropriate oversight?

I'm not a Judge, I'm not even a lawyer (trained in the magical ways of USA law), but I doubt it's unethical for anyone to just explore the possible ways to subvert iOS or whatever. It might be illegal to explore those possibilities, if you're not one of the insiders (there's a difference in how David Petraeus was prosecuted, vs how Thomas Drake was prosecuted). Trying any particular method of subversion might end up…

If I understand correctly, you believe that the entire CIA as it currently exists is unethical and illegal. That may be a defensible position but it's an obstacle to discussing any specific action: how could you then support any action by the CIA? If the CIA shouldn't do anything then of course they shouldn't do this.
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