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Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

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Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#171

Post by DanBC »

beenpoor wrote: post #115
DanBC wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we see people on HN, in this thread, defend the behaviour. Edit: I'm not; I think the guy was a fucking idiot and I support anything that makes it easier for people to whistleblow creeps.

#DanBC: Even those with other viewpoints, are not defending his behaviour. It is more to do with what next ? This is not a case of harassment as far as I can tell - but unethical and unprofessional behaviour and needs to be condoned for sure. But stretching it to a borderline harassment case is what needs to be avoided (atleast not until full facts are known).

Do you have showdead turned on? In these threads there are always people defending the man.

(I think you meant "condemned", not "condoned".)

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#172

Post by mattmurdog »

misuba wrote: post #107
woof wrote: post #45

I don't see the drama, but then again I'm a guy (40+). If he just waited a few weeks with that second mail, we could hardly fault him for being unprofessional could we? I don't believe she would have gotten then job with another interviewer (the "more experience" part sounds plausible). And if she was a really interesting candidate, another tech screen or phone interview would be natural. I'd tell any friend to say "…

>If he just waited a few weeks with that second mail, we could hardly fault him for being unprofessional could we? We could fault him for being sexist - she'd have to wonder if she didn't get the job because he wanted to date her.

That's sort of the Catch-22. A guy simply can't ask a girl he likes out. A girl who's unqualified feels slighted because a guy is interested in her. What has this world come to?

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#173

Post by beeworker »

BadassFractal wrote: post #136
beeworker wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (If he's that creepy, he'd get her the job and hit on her then) This may not be creepy so much as the optimal strategy for avoiding internet outrage if she rejects your advances... Does everyone here seriously have no idea how much office hooking up goes on in the world, or is it only okay if the date is asked for after work hours on the elevator?

Here's a scenario: you and your coworker end up at a bar together, maybe for a team event or something. There's alcohol involved. Nobody got coerced into being there. You're not her superior. Can one of the two people hit on the other in that context?

Sure.

What's wrong is, after it's clear the advances are unwanted (a single but firm "no" is sufficient), continuing to make them. What's also wrong, though a lesser wrong since the signal can be missed, is the initial hitting on someone who has already signaled they don't want to be hit on. Wedding bands once served as a great social signal for this, "Don't hit on someone with a wedding band" is a simple rule to observe and follow, but marriage is dead, so it's not as useful. "Don't hit on co-workers" is also a simple rule to observe and follow, but come on. Enforcing that would eliminate a lot of happiness couples derive from such relationships, whereas enforcing the wedding band rule when marriage meant something wouldn't.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#174

Post by johnnyfaehell »

Borogove wrote: post #151
MollyR wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've heard, most companies will do the explicit math and decide whether to keep him or not. It's not unheard off. Personal Anecdote: I've known a friend, who keeps the most obnoxious programmer around at his company because he wrote the core money making algorithm by himself and is the only one who understands it. The ceo actively protects other employees from this programmer, but won't fire him because the…

If I had a programmer who refused to document the company's core money-making algorithm, that programmer would be out the door by 5pm, and I'd hire a sensible, smart programmer to reverse engineer, rewrite, and document it. No one in tech is that special.

This sounds good but is wrong.

You can write documentation on something and still have it be very hard to understand to the point where other developers can't understand.

Say it's a start up in the first two years of doing business. You're going to rewrite a stable money making functionality just because one guy wouldn't document the code? That's just plain stupid.

Also a smart programmer wouldn't have to reverse engineer the code, THEY GOT THE CODE. Also who says you're going to find a smart programmer? You've burnt your bridge before you've crossed it.

Some people are that special as shown by multiple companies doing this in multiple sectors. Life isn't fair, it doesn't work the way you think it should, it just keeps on rolling with people generally taking the safest option for them to succeed.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#175

Post by johnnyfaehell »

mikeash wrote: post #105
beeworker wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if he's a 10x engineer? He's a massive PR liability because of our insane outrage culture, but he's a very valuable asset for, you know, his actual job.

What if he scares off 10 1x engineers because he's poisonous? Or what if he scares off another 10x engineer who happens to be a woman? Keeping toxic people around is not usually going to pay off, regardless of "outrage culture" (which is an odd way of describing a culture that punishes abuse of power).

"which is an odd way of describing a culture that punishes abuse of power"

The guy wasn't abusing his power. He was being a fucking weirdo, after rejecting her for a job. So that power dynamic was over. Now he's being very unprofessional, weird, creepy, and a whole bunch of other things.

Also outrage culture, we're talking about a culture where someone got fired for making jokes about "forking" another guys repo and big dongles in a private conversation. Then the person who got him fired then got fired for having her companies web site DDoS'd off the internet. That's just one of many not quite right things that's happened in our culture.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#176

Post by picks_at_nits »

beeworker wrote: post #168
picks_at_nits wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, my sociopathic HR lawyers says that if you decline to hire someone, and then any one of your employees hit on them, you are exposing your company to a lawsuit alleging that they were qualified, but you elected not to hire them to pave the ay for hitting on them without any repercussions, e.g. embarrassment if they turn you down and tell all your colleagues that you hit on them. Guard against this possibility is…

You're right I don't see anything wrong with the situation as presented. It's funny, guy has some balls to ask for a date after that. I'll agree he was pretty stupid about it. But I see all the time much stupider advances that actually get accepted instead of rejected. I'd say forgive and forget but I don't see anything to forgive. Asking for a date is how you get dates , even if the context for asking is unusual. I'…

Your argument seems to be, "If only I would appreciate how good this is for him, I would stop worrying about whether his choices are toxic for anyone else." Am I missing some relevant nuänce?

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#177

Post by beenpoor »

DanBC wrote: post #171
beenpoor wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#DanBC: Even those with other viewpoints, are not defending his behaviour. It is more to do with what next ? This is not a case of harassment as far as I can tell - but unethical and unprofessional behaviour and needs to be condoned for sure. But stretching it to a borderline harassment case is what needs to be avoided (atleast not until full facts are known).

Do you have showdead turned on? In these threads there are always people defending the man. (I think you meant "condemned", not "condoned".)

condemned, yes. Not a native english speaker and had to check the dictionary. Looks like I have a feeling I might have used condone in incorrect ways in other times also.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#178

Post by minopret »

methehack wrote: post #111
ditonal wrote: post #16

You know, I'm all about being laid back and rejecting traditional corporate culture, because you can be serious without a suit. But you still need the "be serious" part, which somehow got lost between all the ping pong tables and beer on tap. I actually think a big chunk of the industry encourages unprofessionalism, because professionals do really obnoxious things like negotiate compensation. I really hope that the t…

Surely we can find a middle ground between ping pong and unzipped trousers. The boundaries are just not that complicated. I'm all for encouraging women in tech and executive positions, but we shouldn't need women to tell us this is wrong or to police our behavior. I hope none of that sounds too much like disagreement. I think we're mostly in alignment, except perhaps the suggestion that with a preponderance of men in…

I applaud your point that harassment is largely a clear violation of norms, not a gradation on a spectrum of relaxed behavior.

May I respectfully take issue though with the turn of phrase "we shouldn't need women to tell us"? Does that wording illustrate a problem by assuming that women are outsiders?

I write "illustrate" because I doubt that you really make that assumption. I don't really mean to single you out. I just felt that this language throws light on one of the problems facing women in our computing workplaces.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#179

Post by mikeash »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #175
mikeash wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if he scares off 10 1x engineers because he's poisonous? Or what if he scares off another 10x engineer who happens to be a woman? Keeping toxic people around is not usually going to pay off, regardless of "outrage culture" (which is an odd way of describing a culture that punishes abuse of power).

"which is an odd way of describing a culture that punishes abuse of power" The guy wasn't abusing his power. He was being a fucking weirdo, after rejecting her for a job. So that power dynamic was over. Now he's being very unprofessional, weird, creepy, and a whole bunch of other things. Also outrage culture, we're talking about a culture where someone got fired for making jokes about "forking" another guys repo and…

People keep saying that there's no power dynamic because she already got rejected. I don't get it. Interview decisions can change. People can interview for a different position at the same company. It's not as straightforward as everybody seems to want it to be.

We are not talking about a culture where someone got fired for "forking" jokes. That may be the culture, but it's completely unrelated to the issue being discussed here.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#180

Post by mikeash »

baddox wrote: post #154
mikeash wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying the other examples are clear because people actually do these things, but the date example isn't clear because men don't retaliate against women who refuse a request for a date? I'm not sure what I can tell you besides, yes, yes they do, all the time.

> You're saying the other examples are clear because people actually do these things, but the date example isn't clear because men don't retaliate against women who refuse a request for a date? I'm not saying that men don't regularly do that. I'm saying I have absolutely zero evidence of men doing that. It might happen, but right now I am much more sure that policemen arrest people for refusing to pull over nearly 10…

Again, I'm not sure what to tell you besides yes, this happens, all the time. Maybe ask some of the women in your life how careful they have to be when turning down men who ask them out. Maybe google "fired for rejecting a date" (but beware, there's a lot of noise in the results). Women (and men) absolutely suffer retaliation in the workplace for rejecting advances.
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