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Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

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Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#31
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are proposals to allow pruning the blockchain, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. To guarantee a transaction goes through you have to wait for it to be confirmed, but most transactions really aren't that important/high risk, so beyond checking that the address does actually have the money, it's instantaneous. Many payment processors (I know Bitpay has this option) actually take the 0 confirmation t…

> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitco…

It's definitely easier than typing in sixteen digits (plus expiration and security code), assuming you have a device with your Bitcoin wallet handy but no credit card autofiller. If your device has both your Bitcoin wallet and a credit card autofiller, I would say both methods are equally easy.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code, than to take out your credit card, transcribe a 16 digit number, check the expiration date, and enter the CSC (or is it CVC?). Sure, for websites where your in…

>It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code These steps have nothing to do with BitCoin though. >a properly secured wallet is impossible to steal Define "properly secured wallet"? And whose responsible for securing wallets? "The consumer is responsible" is not the right answer.

> Define "properly secured wallet"?

Cold Storage[0] done right, that's a properly secured wallet. I think this is the best, and cheapest security (minus fiat currency conversion expenses) available atm.

> And whose responsible for securing wallets?

With cold storage, you are.

[0] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#33
post #3

Are there ways to reduce the size of the block chain? Or will we get to the point where only large service providers can hold the block chain? I ask because I was maintaining my own wallet for awhile but stopped because the block chain database was getting unwieldy - it would take up to a week to resync if I ever turned my wallet software off for a significant amount of time. You know though... I actually don't care.…

I'm in India and I can't even buy it easily. Paypal hates it, as does India's Reserve Bank.

Too much effort for too little reward. Right now, the only thing I'd actually want to buy with BTC is illegal stuff off the darknet. There is virtually nothing else I need that bad that normal cash can't do.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#34
post #3

Are there ways to reduce the size of the block chain? Or will we get to the point where only large service providers can hold the block chain? I ask because I was maintaining my own wallet for awhile but stopped because the block chain database was getting unwieldy - it would take up to a week to resync if I ever turned my wallet software off for a significant amount of time. You know though... I actually don't care.…

Yes there is a solution. The reason it took you days to resync was because you ran the reference implementation, Bitcoin Core, which is meant for "full nodes" running 24/7. Simple users like you should instead run "thin client" or SPV wallets (Simple Payment Verification) which do not need to store the whole block chain, allowing your wallet to resync pretty much instantly. For a list of SPV wallets see https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet and look for those labelled "simplified validation".

You also very likely ran into the problem that older versions of Bitcoin Core were slow to download blocks. For example version 0.10.0 released in February 2015 introduces parallel block download, which makes resyncing faster. Numerous other optimizations were made over the last 12-24 months (eg. better detection of stalled downloads). From your description it sounds like you were running a significantly older version of Bitcoin Core, so you were missing out on all these optimizations.

I would like to point out that despite the block chain growing continuously, we are still very far from the point where only large service providers can hold the block chain. The average block size is currently ~400 kB (https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints...), this means the block chain grows by ~20 GB every year. This is only 1% the size of an average desktop hard drive (2 TB), and would take only 4.5 hours to download (once a year, mind you) assuming a steady common residential Internet download speed of 10 Mbit/s.

Heck, a dedicated computer on a common residential Internet connection could still run as a full node and handle an average block size 100x larger that today (~40 MB per block, 2 TB growth per year = 0.5 Mbit/s continuous download). I would hardly describe something an enthusiast can do as a thing that "only large service providers can do". And keep in mind by the time 100x growths happens, CPUs/HDDs/Internet speeds will be much faster than today. Bitcoin's scalability has already been benchmarked pretty well: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability - no immediate bottlenecks are in sight.

"high fees in its transactions"

Fees are optional, and typically 0.0001 BTC (3 cents).

"up to 15 minutes for the transaction to be approved"

No, transactions are typically "received" instantly within seconds, and take 10-60 minutes on average to "settle" (be confirmed by 1 to 6 blocks). This is a lot faster than credit cards or ACH which both take 24h (or more if this is a weekend) to be received (ie. dollars available in the recipient's account), or bank wires which take days (or end-of-business-day if your are lucky).

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be very difficult to get another coin to the level of adoption that bitcoin has. Many have tried, and none have come close.

They possibly could if they create a more secure cryptocurrency

What are concrete security shortcomings of bitcoin that could be solved with a new coin?

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#36
post #30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get fraud protection with Bitcoin (if you want it) by using two-of-three multisig transactions with an escrow agent of your choosing. The "no recourse for fraud" meme about Bitcoin is simply wrong. There are not many dispute-resolution mechanisms right now because the technology is young and because most existing users don't particularly want (and don't want to pay for) the second-order services that credit-c…

> The "no recourse for fraud" meme about Bitcoin is simply wrong. OK, but wait: > There are not many dispute-resolution mechanisms right now... If Bitcoin catches on among a wider demographic, dispute resolution... will get built. The technology is very flexible and can accommodate just about everything... Ah, OK. So the fact that there's no recourse for fraud is actually correct. But because, in theory, there could…

Are you asking me about the capabilities of the techology, or are you asking me to predict the future? I'm giving you the former.

I don't know what Bitcoin will look like in ten years. I do understand the technology and am interested in having a discussion about it. But on Hacker News, in threads like this one, a great many of the comments demonstrate fundamental technical misunderstandings or seem to regard Bitcoin as a mature ecosystem. So I think it's appropriate to try to dispel the ignorance and to emphasize that Bitcoin is actually a nascent technology, one that offers far more than the rudimentary sort of magic Internet money that we see today. Bitcoin is a base layer for permission-lite financial innovation in whatever direction the market demands. You can build all sorts of stuff on top of it.

That means that if Bitcoin's still around in a decade, the ecosystem will likely look very different from today's. "Assume we will never have a ladder," you seem to be saying. Meanwhile, plenty of capable people are hard at work building ladders.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code These steps have nothing to do with BitCoin though. >a properly secured wallet is impossible to steal Define "properly secured wallet"? And whose responsible for securing wallets? "The consumer is responsible" is not the right answer.

> Define "properly secured wallet"? Cold Storage[0] done right, that's a properly secured wallet. I think this is the best, and cheapest security (minus fiat currency conversion expenses) available atm. > And whose responsible for securing wallets? With cold storage, you are. [0] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage

This is a digression though. The subject came up in the context of a claim that bitcoins were "just as convenient as credit cards".

Cold storage is essentially isomorphic to keeping treasure in a safe, and needless to say very much not equivalent to making a credit card transaction.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#38
post #3

Are there ways to reduce the size of the block chain? Or will we get to the point where only large service providers can hold the block chain? I ask because I was maintaining my own wallet for awhile but stopped because the block chain database was getting unwieldy - it would take up to a week to resync if I ever turned my wallet software off for a significant amount of time. You know though... I actually don't care.…

There is an iOS wallet that connects directly to the network that downloads the necessary info in seconds: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/breadwallet-bitcoin-wallet/i...

This uses Simplfied Payment Verification (SPV).

SPV helps with some scalability issues, but doesn't solve them all.

From http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4649/what-is-an-s...:

> SPV: A Bitcoin implementation that does not verify everything, but instead relies on either connecting to a trusted node, or puts its faith in high difficulty as a proxy for proof of validity. BitCoinJ is an implementation of this mode.

See also:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11054/understandi...

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#39
Since they're looking for ASIC engineers, I guess they're a mining hardware company.

I've been hoping someone will design a bitcoin cash voucher reader/printer, like you see in the casinos.

(For use in small retail business and vending machines.)

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#40
post #12

How much Bitcoin do the founders, employees, or investors own? Curious to see what real gains they could realize if they succeed in making people see Bitcoin as a legitimate means of payment.

LOTS. 21e6 has been mining for some time, and A16z has been funding and involved in Bitcoin for a number of years now, with a very 'winner take all' approach.
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