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Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

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Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CAs aren't the only possible point of failure. Simply by obtaining private keys for Google/Facebook/YouTube/Yahoo/Baidu, the NSA can passively decrypt a HUGE percentage of the world's traffic. Any server encrypting for Google will need to have these keys so it's quite difficult to keep all these servers secure, and given the keys' values, the NSA would have no trouble budgeting infiltrating companies to get them.

Absolutely, I was just giving one example.

It's' simple love. .m

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#112
post #110
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if the law says that secret courts can decide using secret proceedings? Then at least it's on the books as a choice our society has made. OP's issue is there's currently no clear legal chain of certain programs back to a democratic decision.

The FISA courts have been authorized by an Act of Congress. That's what the checks and balances are for, though, and the courts can overturn it. I wonder if the system will stand uo though. The addiction to bigbdata is strong once tasted, and spy agencies actually enjoy getting away with stuff.

[deleted]

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#113
post #101
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the law says that secret courts can decide using secret proceedings?

> What if the law says that secret courts can decide using secret proceedings? Then at least it's on the books as a choice our society has made. OP's issue is there's currently no clear legal chain of certain programs back to a democratic decision.

>Then at least it's on the books as a choice our society has made.

A handful of elites handing responsibility to a handful of FISA judges in closed/secret court is far, far a choice "society" has made.

From the norms and practices of the USG, I imagine almost everything the NSA does is perfectly legal. SCOTUS will respect the Executive in terms of its state secrets argument and Congress's leadership in handing responsibility to managing these things to FISA will also be deemed lawful.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#114

I am a Wikipedian, a contributor of free content to Wikipedia. (I contribute in Chinese, in German, and in some other languages too.) I read the Wikimedia Foundation blog kindly submitted here by an early Wikipedian and read all the comments here posted before mine before writing this reply. In the last two weeks, I've renewed acquaintance with quite a few local Wikipedians at two Wikipedia Edit-a-Thons that occurred…

Well put. Another comment ITT[0] also pointed out the global surveillance arms race and the futility of pressuring the US to unilaterally disarm. This is particularly true in light of the many legitimate global threats to freedom mentioned in your comment.

Knowing how unpopular this opinion is here, I still feel the need to share... Lawsuits like these strike me as either incredibly naive or a cynical public relations stunt. I don't enjoy my donations supporting either kind of effort and unfortunately, will likely cease future contributions.

The NSA does not surveil domestic communications without a court ordered warrant and I have heard no arguments to convince me that this is not a legitimate use of authority. If there was a single change to the NSA that I could advocate, it would be stronger and harsher mandatory minimums for anyone found in violation of the existing prohibitions on domestic surveillance.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9177073

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#115
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

> I just wanted to say that people who support the NSA aren't hiding in fear. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be backed by evidence. Every single lawsuit challenging mass surveillance has been resisted by the Executive on the basis of state secrets and lack of standing. The Executive is using a judicial tactic to avoid having to answer the question of whether these programs are constitutional. When that questio…

> 1) How are broad secret court[4] and non-court[5] orders constitutional?

There are two broad concepts these rest on.

First, is that many of the NSA's activities do not require court oversight in the first place, because they rest on the executive's broad powers in foreign affairs. By and large, the Constitution does not apply on foreign soil, and so the NSA does not need a court order to spy on e.g. Angela Merkel. The crucial thing to understand about the FISA Court is that it's not an attempt to take something that previously required a warrant from a regular court and make it a secret proceeding. That would be unconstitutional. Instead, its an attempt to take a process that Constitutionally requires no court oversight and inject some court oversight to ensure that the NSA stays within its foreign mission.

The second broad principle is Smith v. Maryland plus the broad subpoena power. Smith v. Maryland says that information you put in the hands of a third party is not protected by the 4th amendment. The subpoena power says that you can always be compelled to turn over information pursuant to a valid investigation. The subpoena power is very old. It predates the Constitution by hundreds of years.

The anti-NSA side generally misunderstands the context of the 4th and 5th amendments. The background rule is that the government is entitled to evidence relevant to an investigation. Heck, even private litigants are so entitled. If you're suing a company, you can serve a subpoena on a third party obligating them to turn over documents relevant to the lawsuit. The 4th and 5th amendments are exceptions to those broad powers. And in an age where everyone's information is floating around in the "cloud" where third parties have access to it, Smith v. Maryland gives the NSA a very wide latitude in which they can operate and still in good faith say their programs are legal.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#116
post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

So we live in a country where members of the government can brazenly talk about how they conspired to commit felonies against citizens with no fear of criticism or backlash. Great.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#117
post #71

Despite what they say in the article, I really don't think they have standing. But I would love to hear why they do from someone familiar with the legal argument.

I thought that too at first. But the NYT op-ed does a better job of explaining.[1] Basically, they think that the NSA has the ability to index anonymous readers with pages visited, and anonymous editors with pages changed. Then if the NSA is sending that data to a bunch of governments around the word (Egypt, Israel, the Five Eyes, whoever else), dissidents around the world are at risk of being caught for browsing/edi…

"Then if the NSA"

That's a big IF and one that will be almost impossible to prove. I don't see how the case holds any merit if they can't prove this happens.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#118

I am a Wikipedian, a contributor of free content to Wikipedia. (I contribute in Chinese, in German, and in some other languages too.) I read the Wikimedia Foundation blog kindly submitted here by an early Wikipedian and read all the comments here posted before mine before writing this reply. In the last two weeks, I've renewed acquaintance with quite a few local Wikipedians at two Wikipedia Edit-a-Thons that occurred…

Well put. Another comment ITT[0] also pointed out the global surveillance arms race and the futility of pressuring the US to unilaterally disarm. This is particularly true in light of the many legitimate global threats to freedom mentioned in your comment. Knowing how unpopular this opinion is here, I still feel the need to share... Lawsuits like these strike me as either incredibly naive or a cynical public relation…

> The NSA does not surveil domestic communications without a court ordered warrant and I have heard no arguments to convince me that this is not a legitimate use of authority.

Oh what faith you have...

     How are things over there?
     I'm at the Guardian. They’re publishing TEMPORA today.
              They are very nervous about an injunction.
     The NSA love that program.
     Why?
     Because they aren't allowed to do it in the US.
              The UK lets us query it all day long.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If everyone is shouting that you're bad, the most basic human instinct is to shout back even louder. Citation needed. Even if this is the case, then it is lucky that we developed cognitive tools that allow us to reflect on our actions and try to comprehend why those people are shouting at us in a civilised society.

Well this is basically part of how you try to convince someone of your opinion. If you only shout "you are bad", you are going to get shouts back. It's all about the way how to have a decent discussion. If you first acknowledge that the other party has some good points (for example, acknowledge the need for the government to acquire intelligence), and use that as a basis for further discussion, you have a much better…

> Right now, as we did/do with the people of wallstreet, it's a kind of "you are either with us, or against us" discussion. No good ever comes from that.

It also doesn't help that most anti-Wall Street rhetoric has much in common, either intentionally or unintentionally, with antisemitic dogwhistles.

Enough of Wall Street's population is Jewish that they recognize the dogwhistling and tune out.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#120
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. It doesn't really matter if it's legal or constitutional, because if it's not then they'll change the laws or reinterpret them in a new way or write a new Patriot Act. What we should focus on is whether a government should be allowed to operate in secrecy, without any public oversight or knowledge, and whether the government can be morally justified in surveilling citizens…

"What we should focus on is whether a government should be allowed to operate in secrecy, without any public oversight or knowledge, and whether the government can be morally justified in surveilling citizens without probable cause." Actually, it is the problem for precisely that reason. What it boils down to is the Rule of Law. If the people at the top can do anything they want and never face any sort of prosecution…

Really the problem is the people we are electing. The voting public has the effectiveness of their vote diminished by a forced two party system and lack of campaign reform. We also have a large voting base that are single issue voters and don't care about anything except a single social issue like reproductive rights or marriage equality. Getting the right people in office would solve this problem but Americans aren't informed or interested enough to make this happen.
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