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Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

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Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where are you getting 30K from? I only have experience with what CMU will quote a family with modestly upper middle class means, about 10 years ago, but I was unimpressed the difference back then between them and state school was multiples more than 30K over 4 years 2 things about that 20K difference 1) how much of the can be attributed to better students starting off at those schools 2) I'm not convinced that the 20…

It's median salary for all grads, not median entry level. So it's 20K every year over likely 10 years, which blows nearly any fixed education cost out of the water. The average net price of an MIT education (4 years) in 2012-2013 was $40K: http://web.mit.edu/facts/tuition.html You can't make these numbers not add up to demonstrating the value of a high quality education unless you speculate that education has nearly…

http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

"We find that the return to college selectivity is sizeable for both cohorts in regression models that control for variables commonly observed by researchers, such as student high school GPA and SAT scores. However, when we adjust for unobserved student ability by controlling for the average SAT score of the colleges that students applied to, our estimates of the return to college selectivity fall substantially and are generally indistinguishable from zero. There were notable exceptions for certain subgroups. For black and Hispanic students and for students who come from less-educated families (in terms of their parents' education), the estimates of the return to college selectivity remain large, even in models that adjust for unobserved student characteristics. "

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http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2004/10/education...

"The researchers Alan Krueger and Stacy Berg Dale began investigating this question, and in 1999 produced a study that dropped a bomb on the notion of elite-college attendance as essential to success later in life. Krueger, a Princeton economist, and Dale, affiliated with the Andrew Mellon Foundation, began by comparing students who entered Ivy League and similar schools in 1976 with students who entered less prestigious colleges the same year. They found, for instance, that by 1995 Yale graduates were earning 30 percent more than Tulane graduates, which seemed to support the assumption that attending an elite college smoothes one's path in life.

But maybe the kids who got into Yale were simply more talented or hardworking than those who got into Tulane. To adjust for this, Krueger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, "moderately selective" school. It turned out that such students had, on average, the same income twenty years later as graduates of the elite colleges. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income "varied little, no matter which type of college they attended." In other words, the student, not the school, was responsible for the success.

Research does find an unmistakable advantage to getting a bachelor's degree. In 2002, according to Census Bureau figures, the mean income of college graduates was almost double that of those holding only high school diplomas. Trends in the knowledge-based economy suggest that college gets more valuable every year. For those graduating from high school today and in the near future, failure to attend at least some college may mean a McJobs existence for all but the most talented or unconventional.

But, as Krueger has written, "that you go to college is more important than where you go." The advantages conferred by the most selective schools may be overstated."

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http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10/getting-in

"But let’s look at those who got into both types of schools, some of whom chose Penn and some of whom chose Penn State. Within that set it doesn’t seem to matter whether you go to the more selective school. Now, you would think that the more ambitious student is the one who would choose to go to Penn, and the ones choosing to go to Penn State might be a little less confident in their abilities or have a little lower family income, and both of those factors would point to people doing worse later on. But they don’t.”

Krueger says that there is one exception to this. Students from the very lowest economic strata do seem to benefit from going to an Ivy. For most students, though, the general rule seems to be that if you are a hardworking and intelligent person you’ll end up doing well regardless of where you went to school. You’ll make good contacts at Penn. But Penn State is big enough and diverse enough that you can make good contacts there, too. Having Penn on your résumé opens doors. But if you were good enough to get into Penn you’re good enough that those doors will open for you anyway. “I can see why families are really concerned about this,” Krueger went on. “The average graduate from a top school is making nearly a hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year, the average graduate from a moderately selective school is making ninety thousand dollars. That’s an enormous difference, and I can see why parents would fight to get their kids into the better school. But I think they are just assigning to the school a lot of what the student is bringing with him to the school.”

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#92
Let me give some perspective from a high school senior: The main reasons for going to college is (a) a highly specialized education, (b) ability to grow your network, and (c) a good social setting that you may not get anywhere else. Particularly on point (a) - sure there are a lot of good online resources to learn, but you can't beat having an expert in the field at your disposal. Some topics like The basics of machine learning (Stanford CS229) can be found, but it's the truly specialized courses (more advanced machine learning) that are hard to find.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#93
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, if your starting salary is 80k, this is ten thousand dollars MORE THAN the average college debt ! And no opportunities to branch out of software engineering. Your starting salary would have to be around 55-60k for you to take on less debt than a typical four year degree, even accounting for subsidized interest rates. edit for downvotes: here's the math: Average college debt is 27ish k. Bump it up to 30k for…

I think there is an assumption that this enables such a job that otherwise would be unattainable. As an individual, of course you want the $80k job, despite the $60k job "requiring less debt", plus you then get to keep the $80k job after the 2 years.

If I want to optimize for longevity of career and salary, then a college degree is the obvious choice.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#94
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without being able to grasp and think critically about sophisticated propaganda, and how to challenge ideas College education currently involves exposing students to sophisticated (progressive) propaganda, which they lack the skills to challenge. Nonetheless, I think the good outweighs the bad when it comes to a the broad liberal arts education. But it could be a lot better. A good start would be 1) Adding more mai…

> This means people should be allowed to say that different races have different IQs, that it's not ok to be gay, and that gender differences stem from biologically hardwired tendencies. Why should people be allowed to loudly assert unsupported claims in an institution devoted to learning?

They should, because there are many things that we don't have sufficient evidence to prove or disprove, and sometimes it's useful to hold an opinion on them anyway.

If a person can make the unsupported claim that gender differences do not stem from biologically hardwired tendencies, then a person should be able the unsupported claim that gender differences do stem from biologically hardwired tendencies.

Also, not being able to make "unsupported" claims is a vicious cycle. If you can't say X, then any academic study is going to phrase their conclusions very careful regarding X (or possible selectively publish - I've seen this). And then X is going to be "unsupported".

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#95
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's much better off as a person having a B.A. in Computer Science in five years than their intended B.S./B.F.A. in four, I think the both components are vital. The undergraduate major I ended up with has definitely opened some doors; if I had finished the other half of my degree I wouldn't need to spend nearly as much time proving my literacy in other languages on the job . Most of my clients do business…

Thanks for relating your experiences. > As someone who's much better off as a person having a B.A. in Computer Science in five years than their intended B.S./B.F.A. in four In fairness, you don't know what would have happened if you took the other path. (Not that I have any idea myself.)

> In fairness, you don't know what would have happened if you took the other path.

I think my mental health was greatly improved, though of course I can't know the alternative :)

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#96
post #66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are aware of what most higher-end 4 year colleges cost? i think 25% of two years wages is a lot less debt than many are left with.

This is not true. The opposite is true. The average person has 27k, which means it's a pretty exceptional person who leaves college with 40k in debt (that's 25% of 80k over 2 years). The real cost disparity is probably even larger than 10k due to taxes.

I am speaking about higher-end, which they seem to be looking to compete with, not averages. Also the 2013 average is $28.4k across the board, with private colleges closer to $39.9k. You are also assuming that the person will be making $80k. A fresh grad outside of SF probably wont be making that.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's median salary for all grads, not median entry level. So it's 20K every year over likely 10 years, which blows nearly any fixed education cost out of the water. The average net price of an MIT education (4 years) in 2012-2013 was $40K: http://web.mit.edu/facts/tuition.html You can't make these numbers not add up to demonstrating the value of a high quality education unless you speculate that education has nearly…

http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159 "We find that the return to college selectivity is sizeable for both cohorts in regression models that control for variables commonly observed by researchers, such as student high school GPA and SAT scores. However, when we adjust for unobserved student ability by controlling for the average SAT score of the colleges that students applied to, our estimates of the return to college se…

>Software Engineers

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159 "We find that the return to college selectivity is sizeable for both cohorts in regression models that control for variables commonly observed by researchers, such as student high school GPA and SAT scores. However, when we adjust for unobserved student ability by controlling for the average SAT score of the colleges that students applied to, our estimates of the return to college se…

>Software Engineers

the trends at play here:

- ability to prove worth outside an education credential

- access to educational materials outside a couple elite schools

- ability to find the relevent people to network with

suggests that a software engineer today has it easier, not harder to overcome non elite credential than the people measured in the qouted study

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that said, the MIT average numbers qouted above seem fine, if someone where to tell me they could attend MIT for less than 50K for the whole 4 years, I would say that sounds like a pretty good deal

its encouraging to me that the top couple universities seem compelled to compete on value, even if that happens in what appears to me to be a fairly price discriminatory manner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination )

hopefully the trend spreads and many many more college compete on value as well

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#99
post #96
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. The opposite is true. The average person has 27k, which means it's a pretty exceptional person who leaves college with 40k in debt (that's 25% of 80k over 2 years). The real cost disparity is probably even larger than 10k due to taxes.

I am speaking about higher-end, which they seem to be looking to compete with, not averages. Also the 2013 average is $28.4k across the board, with private colleges closer to $39.9k. You are also assuming that the person will be making $80k. A fresh grad outside of SF probably wont be making that.

Be consistent. Graduates from top private/public unis will have more debt, sure, but they also do make 80k+ on average, as a matter of fact. So the debt load is best case comparable in 1/2 the time and for no degree.

As others have pointed out, undergrad debt numbers include R&R but the 25% for 2 years doesn't. What's 2 years of rent in SF for two years.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#100
post #99
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am speaking about higher-end, which they seem to be looking to compete with, not averages. Also the 2013 average is $28.4k across the board, with private colleges closer to $39.9k. You are also assuming that the person will be making $80k. A fresh grad outside of SF probably wont be making that.

Be consistent. Graduates from top private/public unis will have more debt, sure, but they also do make 80k+ on average, as a matter of fact. So the debt load is best case comparable in 1/2 the time and for no degree. As others have pointed out, undergrad debt numbers include R&R but the 25% for 2 years doesn't. What's 2 years of rent in SF for two years.

You are welcome to your opinion, but i think you are wrong.
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