Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#71

Post by fuzzywalrus » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:47 AM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #50

I'm suspicious for two reasons: 1. I struggle to believe that a well-rounded CS and engineering education can be squeezed into two years. Describing this as "the future of computer science education" (their words)—when it appears to be a trade school which teaches CS basics followed by Rails, Python and iOS development—is doing CS a massive dis-service. There's nothing wrong with this kind of trade school, but it is…

I'm in the skeptic camp too, one of inevitable bonuses of a full college is having many fields in close contact.

Cross academic pollination probably is one of the best aspects of college, and honestly with the amount of resources at their disposal, they could facilitate programs for the current state of "Startups" as a minor or even major, ideally paired with an unrelated field.

This on paper looks more like a trade school, I imagine a program like this could be designed to churn out competent programmers but beyond that, I'm not so sure.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#72

Post by hackuser » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:01 AM UTC

peri wrote: post #65

hackuser wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have students in debt because they MAJOR in areas where they end up with no marketable skills. I disagree. I've never hired someone based on their undergraduate major; I rarely know what they are. The skills imparted by an undergraduate educational institution are very valuable, but not directly applicable to professional work, and that even applies to graduate schools such as law, for example -- no law firm car…

As someone who's much better off as a person having a B.A. in Computer Science in five years than their intended B.S./B.F.A. in four, I think the both components are vital. The undergraduate major I ended up with has definitely opened some doors; if I had finished the other half of my degree I wouldn't need to spend nearly as much time proving my literacy in other languages on the job . Most of my clients do business…

Thanks for relating your experiences.

> As someone who's much better off as a person having a B.A. in Computer Science in five years than their intended B.S./B.F.A. in four

In fairness, you don't know what would have happened if you took the other path. (Not that I have any idea myself.)

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#73

Post by TTPrograms » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:21 AM UTC

pitt1980 wrote: post #60

TTPrograms wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not price tag alone that makes them vulnerable, it's price tag to value ratio. I would gladly take out $200K in loans for an education that would guarantee a $300K+ salary out of school. Current statistics on average salaries for those schools in EECS disciplines compared to industry average seems to suggest that the expense is plenty justified. Will this offering be able to compete at all in the value delivered…

"Current statistics on average salaries for those schools in EECS disciplines compared to industry average" do you have a source for that? also keep in mind that those schools are starting with more capable students going in

Median salary for software engineer - $76,074: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

CMU Software Engineers - $95,512 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Carnegie_Mellon_U...

MIT - $95,392 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Massachusetts_Ins...

Stanford - $111,324 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Stanford_Universi...

+$20K a year for ~$30K in loans is a no brainer.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#74

Post by pitt1980 » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:29 AM UTC

s73v3r wrote: post #61

pitt1980 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

considering the price tag of those schools, they should be the most vulnerable to competition

If you do well at any of those schools, you'll likely end up with a job that will easily allow you to pay off any student loans you need to take out.

how is an 18 year old supposed to know if they will do well?

what happens to non-dischargable debt if they don't do well?

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#75

Post by pitt1980 » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #73

pitt1980 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Current statistics on average salaries for those schools in EECS disciplines compared to industry average" do you have a source for that? also keep in mind that those schools are starting with more capable students going in

Median salary for software engineer - $76,074: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... CMU Software Engineers - $95,512 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Carnegie_Mellon_U... MIT - $95,392 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Massachusetts_Ins... Stanford - $111,324 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Stanford_Universi... +$20K a year for ~$30K in loans is a no brainer.

where are you getting 30K from?

I only have experience with what CMU will quote a family with modestly upper middle class means, about 10 years ago, but I was unimpressed

the difference back then between them and state school was multiples more than 30K over 4 years

2 things about that 20K difference

1) how much of the can be attributed to better students starting off at those schools

2) I'm not convinced that the 20K a year difference persists over time, the state school engineer who becomes professionally accomplished will get raises, the elite school engineer who rests on their laurels won't

what matters is the individual, not the school

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#76

Post by alexvr » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

This is kind of gimmicky. Most people are probably better off going to a 4-year university and studying CS/engineering/math/physics or something, and the few who want to learn in a nontraditional way and don't intend to get a corporate or hardcore engineering job would probably be smart enough choose to use books, a startup internship or some freelance gigs, and, say, the Internet (???) over something like Make School. Many big cushy corporate jobs require traditional degrees, and most startups could care less about your formal education if you can show what you're capable of. I'm having a lot of trouble picturing the market for Make School, even as a massive proponent of autodidacticism and hands-on learning.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#77

Post by swatow » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 3:10 AM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #41

It sounds more like a graduate program than a college education, a sort of Masters in IT entrepreneurship? As a college education, it shortchanges the students: * There is so much more to life than a job. You will be a citizen; how do you decide on war and peace, economic issues, social policy, etc. without understanding history, politics, economics, social issues, other cultures, languages, etc.? Without being able…

>Without being able to grasp and think critically about sophisticated propaganda, and how to challenge ideas

College education currently involves exposing students to sophisticated (progressive) propaganda, which they lack the skills to challenge.

Nonetheless, I think the good outweighs the bad when it comes to a the broad liberal arts education. But it could be a lot better. A good start would be

1) Adding more mainstream economics (and confronting Marxists economists who have left the economics departments but continue to preach Marxism from other departments).

2) Removing censorship of non-progressive opinions. This means people should be allowed to say that different races have different IQs, that it's not ok to be gay, and that gender differences stem from biologically hardwired tendencies. People censor all of these things, then wonder why there are no moderate right wingers. The fact is moderate right wingers get fired. All that remains of the right after it's intellectuals have been eliminated or forced to pretend to be more moderate than they are, is the populist right.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#78

Post by TTPrograms » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 4:28 AM UTC

pitt1980 wrote: post #75

TTPrograms wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median salary for software engineer - $76,074: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... CMU Software Engineers - $95,512 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Carnegie_Mellon_U... MIT - $95,392 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Massachusetts_Ins... Stanford - $111,324 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Stanford_Universi... +$20K a year for ~$30K in loans is a no brainer.

where are you getting 30K from? I only have experience with what CMU will quote a family with modestly upper middle class means, about 10 years ago, but I was unimpressed the difference back then between them and state school was multiples more than 30K over 4 years 2 things about that 20K difference 1) how much of the can be attributed to better students starting off at those schools 2) I'm not convinced that the 20…

It's median salary for all grads, not median entry level. So it's 20K every year over likely 10 years, which blows nearly any fixed education cost out of the water.

The average net price of an MIT education (4 years) in 2012-2013 was $40K: http://web.mit.edu/facts/tuition.html

You can't make these numbers not add up to demonstrating the value of a high quality education unless you speculate that education has nearly 0 value and simply attracts inherently brilliant and valuable people. You then have to further hypothesize that there is negligible benefit to being surrounded by such people.

Constructing such a hypothesis without evidence is clearly grasping at air.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#79

Post by PhoenixWright » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 5:25 AM UTC

DesaiAshu wrote: post #69

PhoenixWright wrote: post #55

As someone who took their online gaming course I wouldn't have anything to do with these guys. They abandoned Make games with us and have been spamming my inbox with at least 3 different business models since then, this being their latest one. The online gaming course had buggy code and horrible stumbling lessons. I heard about them on here and was conned out of $100. Stay away from these scammers.

Founder of Make School here. I'm really sorry you had a bad experience with our online game development course :(. We're continuing to improve both the curriculum and user experience. Please drop me a line - ashu@makeschool.com - and I'll be sure to give you a refund.

I'm not interested in a refund. I posted my experience so others can learn from my mistake. When make games with us was on HN I believed in your company and by the end I felt duped. Maybe things have changed but I would never give you guys a second chance.

Also, my experience is not unique. During the course many students voiced their frustration. Your site crashed the first day, content was posted late and the example code had bugs in it.

That was the time to offer refunds, privately, to every one of your customers. Not here, publicly, to one person exposing your company.

Re: Show HN: Make School – College replacement for founders and developers

#80

Post by feybay » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 5:54 AM UTC

swatow wrote: post #77

hackuser wrote: post #41

It sounds more like a graduate program than a college education, a sort of Masters in IT entrepreneurship? As a college education, it shortchanges the students: * There is so much more to life than a job. You will be a citizen; how do you decide on war and peace, economic issues, social policy, etc. without understanding history, politics, economics, social issues, other cultures, languages, etc.? Without being able…

> Without being able to grasp and think critically about sophisticated propaganda, and how to challenge ideas College education currently involves exposing students to sophisticated (progressive) propaganda, which they lack the skills to challenge. Nonetheless, I think the good outweighs the bad when it comes to a the broad liberal arts education. But it could be a lot better. A good start would be 1) Adding more mai…

I'm fairly "right wing" (not the same as your listed views though), and while I have experienced a bit of derision in class while expressing my ideas, it's nothing I can't deal with. I'm an adult, disagreements are part of life.

Some of my professors have been very free market(the economists oddly enough), although the majority are indeed left wing.

I don't really think that it's sophisticated propaganda, but rather a very ivory tower/academic view of the world that makes college a left-leaning place. I'm fine with being taught by biased professors, I just take some of their statements with a grain of salt.