Announcing Starfighter • Hacker News Board

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#71

Post by achompas » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

j2kun wrote: post #30

japesinator wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because free time is something disproportionately available to the privileged. I grew up in a household where money, even if it wasn't abundant, wasn't a huge concern, so I could spend my time outside of school learning math/computers. I've never had to keep a part-time job to put food on the table, spend anhours walking because I couldn't afford gas, or generally be forced to trade my time for money at a terrible ra…

I think I see what you mean: if this replaces interviews entirely then some people just won't be considered for the job because they have children. To me that sounds like a policy issue (it's illegal to discriminate based on irrelevant features to the job). I.e., not something that the designer of the CTF should be responsible for, but something a company could be very liable for if they aren't careful in how the app…

Parent's point is that companies implicitly filter for this by asking candidates to participate in time-consuming multi-phase interview processes. It's already difficult to work contract-for-hire or take time off for several days of on-site interviews, and it gets much more complicated when you're not well-off or you also have to take care of your kids.

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#72

Post by steakejjs » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

I actually began working on the exact same thing within the last month or so in my spare time.

Having competed in the CCDC for 6 years in college, I found it pretty insane when I saw that employers don't use real hardware during interviews.

Looks like I picked the wrong side project now this team is working on it. However, interviews are broken enough that there is plenty of room in the space =]. Can't wait to see what you launch.

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#73

Post by scoj » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

Congratulations patio11, you sound excited.

I am curious to see how this will work for those like yourself that make CRUD apps. I didn't go to school for programming, but self-taught. I'm afraid it'd be over my head?

The best line: We haven’t done any consulting in a while. We will continue doing no consulting, to the best of our inability.

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#74

Post by bmelton » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #60

marssaxman wrote: post #47

I find this announcement fascinatingly incomprehensible; it clearly emerges from a slice of the software universe quite distant from mine. The use of the acronym "CTF" suggests that the authors are very familiar with this genre of game; but how exactly does it work? What does it have to do with programming? I guess they are making programming into a game (?) and this somehow has something to do with hiring?

A CTF is a game that one plays by programming. I wish I could point you to competing CTFs that you can sign up and play right now, but most disappear from the Internet because they are fiendishly difficult to keep running. Ask me (or any team that has shipped one) why if you're curious. One example would be MicroCorruption. https://microcorruption.com Thomas and Erin helped build it back when they were still at Matas…

So, for those of us who fit your archetype, that mostly build web apps in high-level languages like Python, haven't touched Assembly in a decade, but do not have a team of seasoned hackers hanging out with us in our living rooms, what are the odds that we're going to be able to use it to refine our skills in isolation?

I fully understand that if your company is looking for pen testers, I'm not the guy you'd hire. That's cool, but since one of the aims is developing and refining skill, how approachable is it intended to be?

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#75

Post by patio11 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

ratsimihah wrote: post #37

Is it significantly different from topcoder?

Yes. I don't know how to describe how until you've actually played it. You know how World of Warcraft and Tetris are both games? Starfighter is a game, too. We're very much not Tetris. Or Topcoder.

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#76

Post by Permit » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

japesinator wrote: post #28

j2kun wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it unfair to hire people who spend large fractions of their free time honing their skill over those who don't? I mean, if it shows in the quality of their work... Edit: I know this comment is unpopular, but every craft industry does work like this to some extent. As a programmer you have a portfolio, and all else being equal those who spend their free time coding have larger and more impressive portfolios. Tha…

Because free time is something disproportionately available to the privileged. I grew up in a household where money, even if it wasn't abundant, wasn't a huge concern, so I could spend my time outside of school learning math/computers. I've never had to keep a part-time job to put food on the table, spend anhours walking because I couldn't afford gas, or generally be forced to trade my time for money at a terrible ra…

>I grew up in a household where money, even if it wasn't abundant, wasn't a huge concern, so I could spend my time outside of school learning math/computers.

This accumulated advantage you describe is present either way. The length of the interview or CTF process is not going to change this.

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#77

Post by paulhauggis » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

"You will use real technology. You will build real systems. You will face the real problems faced by the world’s best programmers building the world’s most important pieces of software."

I'm wondering, what is your business model? Are the users doing free bug fixes and work for the employers while they are proving their skills?

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#78

Post by achompas » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

bearclough wrote: post #40

Wonderful, let me add this to the list of things I need to do in my spare time to remain a hire-able resource .... GitHub, Meetups, reading hacker news, preparing for puzzle interviews, , HackerRank, conquering a CTF. Jeez, can we say dance monkey dance.

I think patio11 and tptacek hope this can replace those things, so that you can work towards a new gig on your own terms (instead of going through the usual song-and-dance).

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#79

Post by tptacek » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

bearclough wrote: post #40

Wonderful, let me add this to the list of things I need to do in my spare time to remain a hire-able resource .... GitHub, Meetups, reading hacker news, preparing for puzzle interviews, , HackerRank, conquering a CTF. Jeez, can we say dance monkey dance.

What are some things you'd worry about a company like this doing that would increase dance-monkey-dance factor?

What are some things a company like this could do to decrease dance-monkey-dance factor?

We're not interested in making monkeys dance, unless they want to, and enjoy it.

Re: Announcing Starfighter

#80

Post by dataker » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 9:38 PM UTC

Part of the current interviewing process is Github and side-projects. I truly understand the reasons for Starfighter, but are you putting any real value behind it? I like CTF, but it's not quite the same as contributing to open source projects.