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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#361

Post by SwellJoe »

Dewie wrote: post #314
SwellJoe wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, if you insist on an explanation: In this particular comment, I had originally written "white, middle class, males", but then decided that wasn't useful specificity in this particular conversation. I deleted the adjectives and kept the subject noun untouched. I apologize for causing cognitive dissonance for you due to the difference. I assure it is not out of self-hatred, or any sort of intent to make men see…

> , I had originally written "white, middle class, males", but then decided that wasn't useful specificity in this particular conversation. Yeah, it's not always on topic to bring up some kind of Privilege Bingo.

Sometimes it is useful, sometimes it is not. It's pretty obviously true that middle class white males often have the hardest time recognizing their privilege, as it is most easily invisible to us. I made it to middle age with almost zero awareness of my privilege, despite always considering myself anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-homophobia.

But, in this case, gender plays a dominant role and race is almost inconsequential; a few of the highest profile sexual harassment cases of the past couple of years in the tech and startup world have involved men of a variety of ethnicities and backgrounds. So, I corrected it before posting it.

I was trying to convey meaning without making it a fight over semantics or word choice. I genuinely did not intend to cause upset over my word choices; the content of my language I expected would elicit reactionary responses from folks who haven't quite confronted or even acknowledged their privilege.

So, again, I apologize for using the word "male" in a paragraph with "women". It was not intended to be a dog whistle for radical feminists or something, as it seems you believe it is. I was trying to communicate with the community that is a big part of my life, as best I know how.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#362

Post by mattmaroon »

jusben1369 wrote: post #131
mattmaroon wrote: post #59

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or a…

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female…

Oh, I'm certainly not blaming the victim. But I believe people have a responsibility to protect themselves. Not just a right, a responsibility. Fool me once, shame on you, etc.

If you are raped and do nothing about it, you're certainly not deserving of being raped again by the same guy. He's still a monster. But when it happens you've been a party to it. And you definitely can't complain that the company or industry you work for is sitting idly by and allowing it if you never reported it to them in the first place.

Now if you did report it and nothing happened, that's a problem. I can't imagine what I'd do if an employee came to me with that, and thankfully I've never had to, but I promise you it wouldn't be nothing.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#363

Post by [deleted] »

pekk wrote: post #345
brazzledazzle wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were a woman I'd want to know where this was illegal or not. I want to know for my daughters when they grow up.

I'm pretty sure it is illegal, but nobody in this thread is a lawyer providing legal advice so that's moot. What is the point of arguing that blackmailing people into sex isn't rape?

[deleted]

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#364

Post by tomlock »

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #321
tomlock wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm finding it hard to see this as evidence of a dangerous trend. Could you help me understand how these five links constitute that?

No, I'm afraid you'll have to do the understanding all by yourself.

Done. Now where's the dangerous trend?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#365

Post by tracker1 »

cstrahan wrote: post #309
tracker1 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it all sucks... on the one hand, being falsly accused of something because someone made a bad decision in a moment, or exaggerated is pretty bad. * Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision) * A person asks another person they work with out. (this isn't harassment, though once a firm no is given they should not ask…

> * Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision) Did I miss somewhere in the post where the regret of a (mutually) drunken one-night-stand was equated with rape? Or are you bringing this up because you believe such occurrences happen often? If it's the latter, would you mind sharing sources? I've heard people suggest that the…

As someone who WAS falsely accused of rape (in my early 20's), I'm pretty sensitive to the issue... and yes, it does happen often enough.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#366

Post by meric »

frandroid wrote: post #336
meric wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude. From the article: I had a boss once who knew he was sexist (also homophobic and transphobic), but was trying to get over it. He said some incredibly dumb things, like offering to have a company meeting at a strip club. He genuinely had bizarre concepts of what’s appropriate and inappropriate behavior. He was ashamed of this and really trying to improve. Listening to him quote the sexual harassment seminars was…

You quoted a bit from the article that had nothing to do with family, and then instead of justifying your point, you just re-iterated it. Then you made up what you thought my opinion of you was. Like, get a grip. You know what increases in large families? Chances of sibling sexual abuse. http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/111312p18.shtml > social activists like you You say it like it's a bad thing. :)

You quoted a bit from the article that had nothing to do with family

She suggested a phenomenon and I suggested a cause.

Because there was less rape when there were larger family. Right...

Your sarcasm indicates you think there was more rape in larger families, yet you claim our culture have become a rape culture.

If there hasn't been more rape, then it's just culture, or there is more rape nowawdays, and nowadays there are small families, and there would have been less rape when there used to be bigger ones.

Anywhere you have men and women together there's always a chance of hetero- sexual abuse, you suggest smaller families will reduce chance of sexual abuse, but why not suggest female only offices to reduce chance of work place abuse? Of course that's not the right thing to do, and the right thing to do is to educate men not to sexual abuse in the first place. How are you going to get people to educate their children, if their children spend all day with a 14 year old babysitter watching tv (and you know, porn) while their parents both work, and never visit their aunts, uncles and grandparents?

It's getting to be a long discussion and I'd like to hear more logical and well-argued points than snark and rhetoric from your perspective, if you can leave your email or have a website or something we can continue this discussion there. Maybe you're on mobile, that's why I'm unconvinced.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#367

Post by hashed »

This girl is lying, the story doesn't make sense and everybody here are too nice to point it out so they try with this typical programmer passive nice way to point out how the story doesn't add up and how nobody actually faced this kind of environment anywhere.

Guys, have some balls, call bullshit when it's due. The tech industry is not more sexist than any other industry, the opposite. I have seen much more mischief in one coked up night among traders than my whole career in tech. And you know what, girls love those people and want to work with them or do other things with them, because they don't apologise and they call girls on their bullshit. That's why you will see more women in finance or law than in tech.

It's also easier and you don't have to spend your days and night secluded in front of a monitor. It is all excuses by women who don't want to put the time, effort and social price that it takes to become a good software developer. The women who do it right and i have worked with some during the years, don't complain about rape, they write great code and everybody respect them for that.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#368

Post by foldr »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #301
jrochkind1 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One involves sexual coercion, the other does not, that's the clear principle 'separating' the two, since rape means coercing someone to have sex. I'm surprised that's not clear. I understand that criminal law appropriately distinguishes between different levels of severity in harmful and socially undesirable behavior, one way or another. But when people start trying to finely parse what kinds of sexual coercion are '…

Your post completely misses the point, but I guess ad hominem attacks are easier than actually using reason. If you reread what I wrote, you'll discover I'm merely pointing out either a) an uncomfortable implication of a line of reasoning or b) a logical flaw in said line of reasoning or c) an unstated premise. I took no actual position myself.

jrochkind1 correctly pointed out that divorce doesn't involve sexual coercion, which seems a good reason not to regard it as an instance of rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#369

Post by brazzledazzle »

pekk wrote: post #345
brazzledazzle wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were a woman I'd want to know where this was illegal or not. I want to know for my daughters when they grow up.

I'm pretty sure it is illegal, but nobody in this thread is a lawyer providing legal advice so that's moot. What is the point of arguing that blackmailing people into sex isn't rape?

I think you may be misconstruing and applying intent that isn't there.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#370

Post by SwellJoe »

pgeorgi wrote: post #318
SwellJoe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies for misinterpreting your intentions. In my experience, denial is a very common response from men when faced with this kind of story. It is disappointingly common among men in tech, in particular.

And the accusations are equally predictable and disappointing. Maybe some (or many) those "disappointingly common" cases aren't quite the clear-cut misogyny but more similar to what you ran into in this thread?

This conversation has a few misunderstandings (all of which, I think, have been resolved through polite clarification) and a number of clear examples of misogyny, which are more difficult to resolve through mere clarification.
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