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We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

blogs.lse.ac.uk

81–90 of 133 posts

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#81
Best quote in the piece:

Because innovation today builds on innovation tomorrow... Policy makers must think very hard how to make value creation activities (done by all the collective actors in the innovation game) rewarded above value extraction activities (in this sense capital gains taxes are way too low).

Peter Thiel's book talks about this, and on the one hand it is of course very good strategy, yet it's also quite sad and pathetic, because the principle he advocates is that you should focus on capturing a market, rather than creating value.

OP is saying, if this is a logical choice for entrepreneurs to make, then policy makers have done a very bad job at structuring incentives. It would make more sense if policy set up incentives which encouraged creating value over capturing it.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#82
I think the author is pointing to a problem but not correctly identifying what the problem is. The problem is deeper.

If the problem were that we have socialized risk of innovation but privatized the rewards, that wouldn't really be a problem. It's a good thing to incentivize innovation.

The real problem is that we don't incentivize innovation.

Instead, we incentivize investment. People who already have money to invest take on small calculated percentages of risk to make back large amounts of money. Frequently the money investors are investing isn't even their own, and they are paid a significant salary to do so, meaning they actually take on none of the risk.

The negative results of this are twofold:

1. Often investors don't invest in innovation. It's equally profitable to invest in number-twiddling schemes that provide no benefit to anyone except the investor, and often that's easier.

2. We speak of companies as if they are single entities. But the reality is that executives and shareholders and of a company are the beneficiaries of any innovation within a company, while innovation typically comes from workers with technical expertise who are typically paid a relatively limited salary perhaps with some minimal stock options.

The way around this problem is typically to get into a company early enough that the line between technical worker and executive is blurred. But that avoids only the problems with lack of reward--it actually exacerbates the risk problem because early commitment to a company is a high-risk endeavor.

In the end, I think that a lot of innovators don't innovate for money anyway--I personally would rather see something I make change the world than make a lot of money off an idea that doesn't make any difference (or makes things worse!). As long as I have enough to live I'm okay. But it would be nice if we stopped pretending that our distribution of wealth is at all meritocratic.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#83
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert in taxation, but corporate taxes are just one piece of the pie. There is no way for employees to avoid income tax, and as far as I know, no way for US based shareholders to avoid paying capital gains/dividends taxes.

In fact, some economists argue that corporate taxes are fundamentally inefficient, because corporations are just a mechanism for producing either individual income or capital gains for their shareholders, so it would be better and fairer to tax the actual humans profiting from the business rather than the corporate straw man itself.

Except that in practice actual humans will avoid paying tax by incorporating themselves.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd feel less comfortable without NASA, NIH, and DARPA, since I have benefitted a great deal from the work they sponsored. I doubt very much I would have had those benefits so soon without these grossly inefficient agencies that have no idea what they are doing carelessly spending other people's money on creating the space age, the Internet age, and the age of genomics respectively. I don't believe for a second that…

>I'd feel less comfortable without NASA, NIH, and DARPA, since I have benefitted a great deal from the work they sponsored. I doubt very much I would have had those benefits so soon without these grossly inefficient agencies... I don't believe for a second that private investment would have done these earlier. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”…

> “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” -Upton Sinclair

The author met that they've benefited in the sense that we all have benefited.

I very much doubt that there are many people in the world who have directly benefited (i.e., received grants from) all of NASA, the NIH, and DARPA.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd feel less comfortable without NASA, NIH, and DARPA, since I have benefitted a great deal from the work they sponsored. I doubt very much I would have had those benefits so soon without these grossly inefficient agencies that have no idea what they are doing carelessly spending other people's money on creating the space age, the Internet age, and the age of genomics respectively. I don't believe for a second that…

If it wasnt for the cold war and the space race, I really doubt that NASA would have ever been created. Should we seek for another cold war because its a medium in which some kind of innovation occur? So are regular wars? Should we demand our states to start wars because technology advances during those times?

Or we could demand our states care as much about advancing human knowledge during peace time as they do during war time.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd feel less comfortable without NASA, NIH, and DARPA, since I have benefitted a great deal from the work they sponsored. I doubt very much I would have had those benefits so soon without these grossly inefficient agencies that have no idea what they are doing carelessly spending other people's money on creating the space age, the Internet age, and the age of genomics respectively. I don't believe for a second that…

Would you feel less comfortable without the NSA? Or put another way, are you just cherry-picking the agencies you happen to like in order to make your point?

The NSA's primary charter is security, not science. Science that happens at the NSA is a happy accident.

NASA and the NIH are explicitly research-focused. And DARPA may be part of DOD, but its charter is right in the name -- advanced research.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#87
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert in taxation, but corporate taxes are just one piece of the pie. There is no way for employees to avoid income tax, and as far as I know, no way for US based shareholders to avoid paying capital gains/dividends taxes.

In fact, some economists argue that corporate taxes are fundamentally inefficient, because corporations are just a mechanism for producing either individual income or capital gains for their shareholders, so it would be better and fairer to tax the actual humans profiting from the business rather than the corporate straw man itself.

Why do that when you can double-dip by taxing both?

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>What if Apple had failed? What if the Federal Government subsidizes mortgages causing a housing bubble and subsequently making our entire financial system to collapse costing hundreds of thousands of jobs? What if California spends $6B+ on a high speed rail system and no one uses it? I understand what you (and by extension, she) are trying to say, but remember that every government action has risk and reward, just…

This is the common theme in the comments on this story: The argument we have socialized risk but privatized the successes is invalid, because when those successes pay off, the taxes paid by those success stories repay the individual investments in those individual success stories. That is not what the term "risk" means. "Risk" also includes all the investments which did not pay off.

>>That is not what the term "risk" means. "Risk" also includes all the investments which did not pay off.

That's certainly true, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.

Diversifying your investments to hedge against those that don't pay off is the foundation of modern portfolio theory. You can see it in action at virtually every level of society: individual firms have employees that don't generate returns, but they hope that the collective productivity of the entire company can generate a positive return, angel investors and VCs invest across a broad spectrum of companies hoping that a few big wins will offset those investments that don't pay off, and governments invest in a variety of projects, research, and (sometimes) companies that they hope will generate positive returns for the economy as a whole.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#89
This also seems to be a child of a wider process by which losses tend to be socialized and profits tend to be privatized. Apparently, the system "works" because nearly all the wealth of the planet is in the hands of something like 1% of the population, while the debt, well...

Another aspect is the speed at which profit is made. At one end there is education, for example, which is an exceedingly bad investment in financial terms because it is very slow and very uncertain. At the other end there is pure trading and seed/startup investment, with profit goals of, what, 25% per year.

Who would finance education? Certainly not a financial investor in his right mind.

Re: We have socialised the risk of innovation but privatised the rewards

#90
post #20
post #10

The title of this piece is terrible, and detracts from what is actually a thoughtful discussion. Mazzucato points out how the government is actually good at funding very high risk work, with a low chance of pay off (think DARPA research in the US). She does say the sentence used in the title, but the context is very important: What this means is that we have socialized the risk of innovation but privatised the reward…

> The title of this piece is terrible... I agree but not for the same reasons I am sure. This title is an old saw from the socialists and has been around for decades. The implicit conclusion is that to make things "fair" we should socialize risk AND reward. How convenient for the socialists. No. The discussion we should be having is; What is the proper function of government? What is your standard? > Her argument app…

> The implicit conclusion is that to make things "fair" we should socialize risk AND reward. How convenient for the socialists.

Straw man. Fairness means:

public funding -> public benefits

private funding -> private benefits

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