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Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

tromp.github.io

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Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#61

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

Just wanted to add that if you don't regularly have the free-time to commit to a full game of Go, or if you simply prefer to play at a slower pace, you might also check out http://www.dragongoserver.net .

They have a variety of board sizes, game types, and recently added tournaments. The average game will play 2-4 moves per day. I typically have 15-18 games going simultaneously, which overall gives me just enough to do while waiting for dependencies to download or the CI server to run.

One note of caution if you've played on other servers: DGS's rankings are shifted considerably higher than many other online servers (much closer in parity with the professional organizations). More info here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#62
post #36
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read "false complexity" as "complexity as imposed by a set of rules", as opposes to "complexity as an emergent behavior from very simple rules and interaction". Of course, adding any rule will add more complexity of the former, and probably the latter too. Whether one is more interesting than another is a matter of taste.

Also: arbitrary rules. Concrete example: castling[0] in chess [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castling

Reading that article, isn't that what Rich Hickey would call "incidental" (and thus bad) complexity?

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#63

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

Generally the most important move is the first move, a common 'zen' go problem is an empty board with 'black to play to win'.

Komi(compensation given to the second player) is a recent invention(1900s) and has only gone up from 4.5 to the recent 6.5 or 7.5 in some tournaments, and yet black still wins over 50% of professional games. Knowing how much komi should be is equivalent to knowing how to play the best game.

As the board fills up tactics or 'tesuji' becomes increasingly important and many times there is only one correct move, computers have become better at this but they still can struggle over common life and death problems. End game is where computers really shine and can now play better than even the best players. Overall computers have taken a recent dramatic upturn in strength thanks to Monte Carlo probabilistic reasoning and are now within a few stones of professionals.

Seemingly, Go will become as chess is within our life times probably even within the next ten years, it will be another interesting moment in the advance of 'AI', but whether it will reveal anything deeper is an open question to me.

I find Go more interesting than chess because often, especially in the beginning, the analysis is less 'hard' or involves less reading of game tree possibilities but involves more 'soft' concepts like spacing, relative territory, trading territory for influence (whether to play on the third line or the fourth line), and is something more akin to art than science if I were to grasp for a metaphor.

Computers will likely enlarge the 'end game' that is be able to play better and better than humans the last part of the game and eventually play better middle game, and eventually only the opening will be where humans have an advantage until that too is taken by computation.

(I'm about an AGA 6 dan)

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#64

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

Been playing for many years (I'm around 5k.) I also enjoy a game of backgammon (I picked it up last August) and still play casual, artificially-complex games with my friends, since they are not big go fans

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#65

I want to learn Go. I would like to practice against a bot first before I get on KGS. What is a good Go program I can run on my Mac to practice against? The AI does not need to be very good at all since I am novice. Once I get familiar with rules, I will play online against players. What is a good Go client to play online on the Mac?

GnuGo is easy enough for beginners I think. I also used a bot called Aya when learning, but I don't know if that is available for OSX.

Regarding clients, there are a few options. CGoban2 is the only client you can use to access KGS, which is currently the biggest English-speaking server. You can also try online-go.com which is entirely browser-based so you don't need a client, and there's also IGS, a Japanese server which can be accessed through their own client called GoPanda2 or other clients like qGo2. There are also two servers called Tygem and WBaduk which are mostly Korean. They have proprietary clients you can run through Wine. I think they're supposed to be accessible through qGo2 as well, but I haven't been able to play through it, only observe others' games.

Also, if you're just learning, http://senseis.xmp.net/ is a great resource.

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#66

I want to learn Go. I would like to practice against a bot first before I get on KGS. What is a good Go program I can run on my Mac to practice against? The AI does not need to be very good at all since I am novice. Once I get familiar with rules, I will play online against players. What is a good Go client to play online on the Mac?

Pachi and fuego are open source engines you can make work on Mac. To play online, IGS is quite nice-looking on Mac, and the most western-populated server is KGS. Ogs is a browser based turn & real time server, too.

KGS: Kiseido Go Server IGS: Internet Go Server OGS: Online Go Server

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#67

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

Just wanted to add that if you don't regularly have the free-time to commit to a full game of Go, or if you simply prefer to play at a slower pace, you might also check out http://www.dragongoserver.net . They have a variety of board sizes, game types, and recently added tournaments. The average game will play 2-4 moves per day. I typically have 15-18 games going simultaneously, which overall gives me just enough to…

OGS (https://online-go.com/) is pretty good as well. It's web based and supports both correspondence and real time games. It's also pretty close to KGS in terms of features.

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#68

I want to learn Go. I would like to practice against a bot first before I get on KGS. What is a good Go program I can run on my Mac to practice against? The AI does not need to be very good at all since I am novice. Once I get familiar with rules, I will play online against players. What is a good Go client to play online on the Mac?

Be aware that practicing against AI lead to poor play and very few improvement, playing weak or strong human is far better. Especially with handicap.

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#69
post #50

Just because the number of legal positions is computed doesn't mean we're anywhere close to "solving" 18x18 Go, right? What's the utility of computing the number of legal positions?

iirc the best two pieces of software in the world are approximately 2dan

between 4 and 6 dan is closer to truth

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#70

I want to learn Go. I would like to practice against a bot first before I get on KGS. What is a good Go program I can run on my Mac to practice against? The AI does not need to be very good at all since I am novice. Once I get familiar with rules, I will play online against players. What is a good Go client to play online on the Mac?

If you just want software to play against, without the client aspect, I'd recommend an older version of Sen:te's Goban (version 3.2). Unlike the latest version, it's free (the latest version is $10). It's quite old, but it seems to still work. It uses an older version of the Gnu GO engine. It used to be able to connect to the Pandas server. I don't know if that part still works. You should be able to find download links.

If the Mac version of SmartGO has features similar to the Windows version, it should be excellent. But, they've been focused on iPhone/iPad apps so it hasn't come out yet.

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