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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#31

Post by stefantalpalaru »

danso wrote: post #21

I don't know what it's like to be raped or sexually harassed, but I am frequently amused at how skeptics think it's so cut-and-dry to just report the issue. This came up in Kelly Ellis's public revelation yesterday that she had been sexually harassed at Google. The Twitter thread starts here: https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574092972624490497 The following is Ellis's statement, and then one of her more earnes…

> Do you expect women to wear wires whenever they're sexually harassed? Trust women.

I was kidnapped by alien Elvis and he threw ping-pong balls at me for an hour. Do you expect humans to wear wires whenever they're kidnapped by aliens? Trust humans.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#32

Post by abalone »

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me."

I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a focal point for specific change.

For example, how do colleagues end up even physically alone in the same space together especially after the first RAPE? Does this stem from unsupervised after-work parties that employees feel obligated to attend? Is it related to conferences or work travel? Clearly she would seek to avoid being near her rapist alone but couldn't. Are there things companies can be doing to better avoid such scenarios?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#33

Post by tomlock »

littletimmy wrote: post #25
tomlock wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many many reasons why women don't report rapes to the police.

Look. That's fine. But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem. The alternative is what many feminists seem to be doing these days, which is "I wish men were nicer..." That is borderline stupid. The world will never be a perfectly safe place. You have to report crimes, and hold people accountable, and use the mechanism for correctiv…

The solution system that you've recognized is also recognized by many, many women. Are you suggesting that the woman writing this piece was not aware of that system?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#34

Post by jackweirdy »

littletimmy wrote: post #25
tomlock wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many many reasons why women don't report rapes to the police.

Look. That's fine. But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem. The alternative is what many feminists seem to be doing these days, which is "I wish men were nicer..." That is borderline stupid. The world will never be a perfectly safe place. You have to report crimes, and hold people accountable, and use the mechanism for correctiv…

> But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem.

Disagree: That’s exactly what whistleblowing is.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#35

Post by stefantalpalaru »

ricardobeat wrote: post #14
SwellJoe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this. Most rape is not "real rape" according to the rapist. Most rape is date rape; the rapist finds a target who is too intoxicated to meaningfully consent (and wouldn't consent when sober), or the rapist is in a position of power over their target (such as a manager with an employee), or they simply don't…

I honestly had a similar question in mind. The phrases "raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months" and "female colleagues told me later that he raped some of them, and in much the same way my attacker had raped me." got me confused. Rape is defined as "unlawful sexual intercourse", is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass other kinds of sexual assault? Or am I bein…

> is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass any kind of sexual assault?

Yes, there's a dangerous trend towards redefining rape to include unwanted looks, bad vibes, sex while intoxicated, sex that you change your mind about after the fact, sex that was not good enough, etc.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#36

Post by jessaustin »

hrktb wrote: post #6
bluehat wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defined rape as the kind with the (bad) screaming and the blood, or tried to. I am aware that some people steal because they are starving but most theft I have seen was somebody who wanted to prove that they could do it. In the same way, I know some people rape in other complicated situations, but the rape I have seen in my life was individuals who just wanted to prove that they could do whatever they wanted, and n…

> * nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety* Has there ever been any evidence that charging a person of power of any crime comes with protection from collateral professional/personal consequences ? In my personal view, getting raped is enough violence that I wouldn't prioritise…

Has there ever been any evidence that charging a person of power of any crime comes with protection from collateral professional/personal consequences ?

This is the point. Societies with hierarchical organization will have different rules for favored and unfavored parties. Perhaps tech is worse than most industries, and that probably has something to do with gender ratios. Still, I wouldn't be shocked to hear of harassment in industries with ratios skewed the other way, like education or nursing. If your success is contingent on the approval of your boss, she or he will have a number of ways to injure you with no repercussions. We progress as a culture when we shrink that set of impune actions or shrink the number of interpersonal relations that give rise to such impunity.

Of course I don't imply that gender-based harassment and discrimination in tech is not a serious problem that we should solve. It is a specific and especially problematic subclass of a more general class of human dysfunction.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#37

Post by elmin »

mrbig4545 wrote: post #29

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

I'm in America, and I've certainly never had a conversation where this level of sexism was mentioned. The worst I've heard is a creepy coworker who likes to give back rubs. For all the reasons in the article, I think it's something which is not discussed as much as it should be. All I can say, is anyone who does this stuff should not be employed anywhere.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#38

Post by chroma »

mrbig4545 wrote: post #29

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute.

In fact, the most sexist behavior I've encountered in the workplace was a manager who had a propensity to interrupt women more often than men. I mentioned this to him in private. Apparently, it was an unconscious bias. Afterwards, he made an effort to correct for it.

Outside of the workplace (parties, bars, public transportation), I've encountered much worse: people getting cornered, felt-up, etc. But that's always involved strangers or acquaintances, not coworkers.

And it should go without saying, but I really feel for the author. :(

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#39

Post by meowface »

grey-area wrote: post #30
littletimmy wrote: post #19

She was raped several times over several months? What on earth? Why isn't this being reported to the police? There is a whole department of law enforcement (funded by our money) that deals precisely with issues of violence. Just use it instead of blogging about your troubles.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

I think there are valid points to both sides. Yes, clearly there is a problem (I don't think the problem is unique to tech), but if you constantly live in fear of the consequences of actions which you never take, you're really stuck in an endless cycle.

If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especially if they get convicted.

I can see how it poses a much greater issue when it's a "he-said she-said" scenario, but still, I think you need to at least try to escalate the issue. If you receive disbelief or even retribution for reporting it, then you leave the company and share your experience.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#40

Post by littletimmy »

grey-area wrote: post #30
littletimmy wrote: post #19

She was raped several times over several months? What on earth? Why isn't this being reported to the police? There is a whole department of law enforcement (funded by our money) that deals precisely with issues of violence. Just use it instead of blogging about your troubles.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

OK, I get the point you are making. My take on this is the following:

The problem of someone using another person in a cruel and harsh manner will not be solved until you resolve the problem of massive power differentials in society. In general, when a man has money/power equal to the next 100000 people (literally worth 100000 times more than the next person in our capitalistic language), why on earth wouldn't he think he can use this 1/100000th of a person for his personal satisfaction? It is functionally no different than eating chicken.

The problem is not one of gender but one of power. The solution is NOT to see women differently, but to make society so that no person (or employer, let's not forget the huge power differential between an employee and employer) is worth so many more times another person that it warps their view of the other's worth.

Can we bring back labor unions already?

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