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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#521
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overly logical analysis of social situations to the detriment of all Where do you see that in any of this? It seems to me to be a classic example of what happens when you don't think things through.

Isn't that the same sort of thing? She interpreted a social situation in her own way and then seemed to think it through based on her own POV and biases to it's logical conclusion. According to the OP she doesn't feel anything but justified. Of course we might feel differently, but doesn't mean she didn't think it through in her own way. IMHO geeks (including me) are terrible at dealing with social situations and eve…

I don't think most people follow that very flexible definition of "thinking it through". With it being so relativistic, it loses any practical use.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#522
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to let PG do the legwork for me here: >I suspect the only taboos that are more than taboos are the ones that are universal, or nearly so. Murder for example. But any idea that's considered harmless in a significant percentage of times and places, and yet is taboo in ours, is a good candidate for something we're mistaken about. Again, from his essay on taboos. [1] Most everything you've cited as an objective…

> Most everything you've cited as an objective wrong was practically universally considered an objective good nary 60 years ago Again, it doesn't matter what the popular opinion was on this. PG stops at murder. I stop at looking at other human beings as inferior life forms based on immutable traits. I am supremely confident that in 60 years, my specific views won't be viewed as bigoted by future generations. > Are we…

It does blow my mind something fierce that "but but it might be you next time" is a serious argument in this. I'm not bigoted, I default to inclusion. Unless we have a serious uprising of the regressive right, I have nothing to fear. And I have much more to fear if they come to power than "Ed said nice things about gay people."

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#523
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to let PG do the legwork for me here: >I suspect the only taboos that are more than taboos are the ones that are universal, or nearly so. Murder for example. But any idea that's considered harmless in a significant percentage of times and places, and yet is taboo in ours, is a good candidate for something we're mistaken about. Again, from his essay on taboos. [1] Most everything you've cited as an objective…

> Most everything you've cited as an objective wrong was practically universally considered an objective good nary 60 years ago Again, it doesn't matter what the popular opinion was on this. PG stops at murder. I stop at looking at other human beings as inferior life forms based on immutable traits. I am supremely confident that in 60 years, my specific views won't be viewed as bigoted by future generations. > Are we…

Like I said, I'm not trying to escalate this into a debate on gay marriage, so I'm going to ignore that you hand-waved away the whole point with an answer equivalent to "nuh uh". Wholesale refusal to discuss internally rational lines of thought is the result of dogma, not rationality, which would calmly approach and deconstruct the topic. Unlike many others, whether I ultimately agree or not, I'm not willing to discard a point of view just because an activist attempts to proclaim it thoughtcrime by slapping a label on the speaker like "bigot". What are you afraid to address? As PG's essay says, if the thought is actually outlandish, no one really cares -- hostility like this only emerges if there is concern that the line of thought will become widespread, which is only a concern when the line of thought is internally rational.

I guess your argument is "the APA says they're wrong", and that therefore, they should not be tolerated? No one could ever rationally doubt the APA? I don't know if you're familiar with the history on it, but the removal of homosexuality as a disorder from the DSM was based purely on politics; there was no paper that triggered scientific reconciliation, there was no new data. Since the APA has insisted on calling into question the licensing of persons who may dare to contradict it on this matter, you can't honestly believe that the issue has been thoroughly explored or reviewed, just as we don't believe that the 99.9% election results in favor of third-world despots actually reflect the will of the people. Regardless of your personal feelings, a person can't look at this process, decide they disagree with the APA's conclusion, and continue to have the right to work?

Personally, agreement with all APA policies is not one of the fundamental requirements I look for in my job candidates that have nothing whatsoever to do with the field of psychology, but to each his own, I guess. Remember, you're not just saying these people "are wrong" or "have lost", but that their beliefs are so troublesome that they shouldn't be protected in their freedom to work.

American principles of tolerance and civil discourse are greatly imperiled by the rising prominence of such hostile positions, and democracy itself is threatened by this behavior.

PG stops at murder because it's one of the only moral standards that is practically constant. You stop at "lesser human beings" because it's convenient for the line of propaganda you've swallowed. Should we allow the mentally disabled or decrepit full freedom lest they be considered "lesser human beings"? Should all parents of Downs Syndrome or other profoundly retarded children be deprived of their supervisory and guardianship privileges over adult children lest these be classified "lesser human beings"? Why is it OK for them to be lesser but not others? There are very few answers you can provide here that are consistent with the moral box you've crafted for yourself.

Consider where your assertion that most antebellum Southerners were frankly evil leads. Where did it lead? People in both the North and the South got worked up about this and stirred to believe things like you just claimed about the opposite side. What's the logical result if you honestly believe "a majority" of persons that adhere to an opposing ideology are frankly evil?

Aren't you automatically classifying people as "lesser human beings" by stating that their opinions are not worthy of basic respect, and wouldn't that make you a hypocrite? Should anyone who holds these opinions be executed?

If we acknowledge that almost all significant world religions espouse very different perspectives than you've expressed, would you support doing something about that? Perhaps we should outlaw these religious groups. What should we do with the people who refuse to recant their religious traditions? Should they be incarcerated? Perhaps a labor camp of some type would be useful for this. What do you say? How much value is the work of frankly evil people, like those who express a belief in Abrahamic tradition, anyway? Wouldn't you always be afraid they were going to do some sneaky, evil thing? The uses for this class are rapidly dwindling. What next?

This sort of hate always leads in the same direction. Do not make the mistake of believing that while everyone who has done similar things throughout history was bad, YOUR beliefs are objectively righteous, and that makes it OK for you. It really doesn't matter what the beliefs are or whether they are objectively right or not once they infect someone with the actual hatred you've expressed (not the "hatred" that your camp claims motivates anyone who dissents for any reason), the results are never pretty. I hope you awaken to this before it's too late.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#524
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting this article, I was trying to track it down for the thread. This encounter was so widely reported that it's almost difficult to discuss it honestly and openly and without taking sides. I feel like that, in and of itself, is the tragedy for the community.

I definitely have a side. I think she handled it wrong, in the same way she's apparently handled similar situations wrong. Lashing out is almost never the best response, a simple "wtf" would almost certainly have ended there on the spot, and a constructive public discussion could have ensued. Meh. It's awful. He shouldn't have been fired and vilified. She shouldn't have received rape and death threats (wth?!). Two li…

I completely agree.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#525
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of when I go out running at night. I avoid running near men (particularly groups of men) because of a fear that I'll come to harm: specifically rape. It's irrational, and unreasonable, but it's the reaction I have nonetheless. (This is common, FYI, many women feel like this.) I don't expect other people to cater towards my fear, but acknowledging that it's real and that it happens is important. Ridicu…

But do you have that fear running around in a public area with 800+ random people? The fear itself is reasonable, perhaps not fair, but reasonable. But if the fear is so strong for you that you can't even feel safe in the above description it's an issue with you and not them.

No, but I've been one of just a small handful of women at a dev conference and it can be incredibly intimidating.

On the plus side, the queues for the loos are always short. ;)

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#526

Personally, I condemn anyone who is a vocal activist in the "gender debate" in tech who does not speak up on topics such as this. If you are female and want to genuinely be treated as an equal in tech, you don't freak out over minor jokes, and when "one of your own" does, I believe you are obligated to voice your disagreement with the behavior, assuming you even think it is wrong, which might be an incorrect assumpti…

Fear and avoidance of half of humanity. I've never before heard that described as "the wisest stance". :D I'll have to think about it... ;)

You'd have to be living under a rock if you think different genders have identical risk profiles in all settings.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#527
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you have that fear running around in a public area with 800+ random people? The fear itself is reasonable, perhaps not fair, but reasonable. But if the fear is so strong for you that you can't even feel safe in the above description it's an issue with you and not them.

No, but I've been one of just a small handful of women at a dev conference and it can be incredibly intimidating. On the plus side, the queues for the loos are always short. ;)

Sure, but intimidated isn't fearful of one's life. We all get intimidated in social situations regardless of gender. I'm sure it's worse at dev conferences for women with respect to intimidation, but I don't think it's outside the norm for it to happen to people.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#528
post #11

Let's be clear here, Jon Ronson spent a fair bit of time lying to Adria Richards to put together his book, his portrayal of the timeline is inaccurate and even if this wasn't the case it'd be a phenomenal amount of false equivalence: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/02/the-falsest-of-false-equi... TL;DR; Yeah he got fired, but he didn't get fired because of an internet backlash.

can you provide any supporting facts that Jon Ronson lied? I mean you say he lied about hsi reasons for interviewing her, i.e. said it was about sexism. However he has not lied about what she said or what actually happened. You do not deny that he has quoted her faithfully. To me it seems that she was expecting that her minority status would protect her, she goes to lengths to point out she is black, female and jewis…

You're asking for supporting evidence for something I didn't say? Wow, exactly how weak do you think your case is?
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