Live data from Hacker News

Coding Like a Girl

medium.com

91–100 of 169 posts

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If you were to make a stereotypically "masculine" presentation, you wouldn't get negative comments on it.

This is so not true. Suits are heavily discriminated against in our industry. If you wear a suit to a conference you probably won't get much attention. EDIT: I must go to the wrong programming conferences, never see suits. Wish the down voters would just share their experiences!

I did not downvote, but I personally don't have any issues with people wearing suits - wear what you like. Only thing I've disliked seeing are popped collars, but more as a warning sign to stay away from the people wearing them if I can help it.

I also do not penalize for dress during interviews either. It's a distraction from the important things, and irrelevant to the answers to the questions of coding ability and culture fit.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of how when a female singer produces her own music and has limited assistance from a man, reviewers attribute the entire thing to the man: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfo... It's not even some malicious, deliberate assumption. People have been raised to expect that it is men who do the "real work", and pass over women without thinking about it.

Can someone explain to me why this is so horrific? When 95+% of music producers are male, of course men are going to assume that you're not a producer if you're female. When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female. If I saw an extremely tall, handsome, well-dressed, and sociable man at a tech conference, I wouldn't take him to be a developer either. If y…

>When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female

For one, that's a crime against statistics and formal logic itself. "90% of RAM is not fault tolerant, of course men are going to assume it's not RAM if it's fault tolerant" would be a ridiculous thing to say, because you just can't reason that way.

The kind of reasoning you want to do works like this: 90% of developers are male. Given that there are about as many men as there are woman, a randomly chosen woman has a 10% chance of being a developer. That's valid statistics. The problem is that this works relatively good while speaking to people in a subway, but at a tech conference you don't have a fair sample of either males or females. You aren't choosing at random but from an extremely skewed sample.

Of course there's instances where these kind of assumptions are valid, but most often (and with most stereotypes) it's just people applying statistics wrong.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#93
>One category of reactions that I receive all the time as a programmer that presents as feminine is: No one believes I am a programmer.

To be fair, I am a guy and no one believes I am a programmer either. Going through YC, it took maybe 3 or 4 times of pg telling me to talk to my technical co-founder followed by me reminding him that it was me before he caught on. In my opinion, it can be a real strength to be different. Some of the most intelligent programmers I have ever worked with have been girls and I have fought incredibly hard to hire them and others on to our tech team only to be beaten by a tech giant who offer big premiums or more security when securing a visa. I know I am not the only one in this boat.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#94
This same article was posted on r/programming yesterday (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2y4294/coding_l...). The discussion following was quite interesting, especially this one comment regarding the twitter exchange (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2y4294/coding_l...).

"I'm not trying to say the whole article is bad so stay with me here, but is it just me or does some of this just come off as negative thinking and negative assumptions? A few examples from the article.. I have been a TA for weekend workshops that teach women to code. My male co-TA’s constantly asked me throughout the workshop how I was enjoying learning to program. ... ....Apparently, presenting as feminine makes you look like a beginner. You were at an event to teach women to code. I don't know the specifics because I wasn't there however maybe the assumption should be that they just didn't realise you weren't a student? I can understand how that must be frustrating but why attribute it to what you were wearing? I feel like the author didn't go into detail here. In another section the author links to a photo on twitter[1] that makes it appear as a commenter is telling Casey Johnston to read her own article. Casey Johnston: So many “solutions” to the lack of women in tech don’t get at the actual problems… Tomas Sancio: @caseyjohnston read the full article. There's a chicken and egg problem w/ female tech role models. Men want to be the next Jobs/Gates/etc. When I first read this screenshot I took it for what it was. "read the article"... i.e. "I read the article" and that's exactly what it turned out to be when I found the tweets[2] . The author putting this screenshot of twitter in here I feel is simply misrepresenting the situation or hasn't researched into even looking at the full context? I have to admit i've only looked at this for 10 minutes, maybe I'm getting the wrong picture here, but from what i've seen it's a completely different story to the one shown on the author's page. I often read these gender inequality articles, however I am always constantly disappointed when things like the above are over dramatized, or I do additional research to only find out that the author is presenting an incredibly biased view of a situation. I don't want people to conclude that there is no gender inequality, however I feel that things like the above do not help get the point across. In fact I think they do the opposite."

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#95

>One category of reactions that I receive all the time as a programmer that presents as feminine is: No one believes I am a programmer. To be fair, I am a guy and no one believes I am a programmer either. Going through YC, it took maybe 3 or 4 times of pg telling me to talk to my technical co-founder followed by me reminding him that it was me before he caught on. In my opinion, it can be a real strength to be differ…

I get that from some folks too - people say "oh, you don't look like a programmer-type". And I want to say "what does that sort of person look like?" but I also half-know what the stereotype is. None of the folks at our coworking spot who are in the software world fit that mold, but they all are programmers of some stripe. It's odd - I know very few programmers who fit the traditional visual stereotype - like, fewer than 10% in my circles. Yet it's still alive and strong...

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gender issues in wider society are the same as those in tech, except tech has a toxic culture and a horrifically skewed gender ratio

I've been in the tech industry, and worked with both women and men for 10 years. I have never encountered toxicity in this industry. The only place I encounter true toxicity is on forums, message boards and comments, and in these mediums the toxicity not at all limited to the technology industry. It's also worth noting that the toxicity, even in these mediums, is limited to a tiny (but vocal) minority, in ratios of w…

And if you've not seen it yourself in 10 years, of course it must not exist.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#97
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High Rising Terminal is a thing and it has nothing to do with gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal Edit: Heck, in the segment you link they even comment on the fact that the guy does it too, and it was one of the first things i noticed. Those are just valley people, that's it.

It's not gender-based, but the complaints about it are gender-based.

It's just as annoying when a guy does it.

If anything, it's an ageist thing, since only young people seem to do it. It makes people sound young, inexperienced, and unsure.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#98
post #9

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

This feedback makes it clear that acting feminine is considered a weakness, instead of a strength. You shouldn't be ashamed to look beautiful, wear dresses and make-up, and present cute slides with a pink theme and occasional kitty picture. This is what the whole "like a girl" is about: if you express your femininity in the things you do and the way you look, people associate that with incompetence.

I don't think cute things are seen as sign of weakness. At least I haven't seen anyone complain that some octocat was too cute for a professional company like github.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#99
post #56
post #45

[deleted]

I downvoted you because I think this is a thoroughly unreasonable and unfair attitude, but I'm starting to regret it. I've heard similar ideas from a few male acquaintances, and if there are a significant number of people in tech culture who feel similarly, the topic is worth discussing regardless of its merit.

I'm not sure what you mean? Which part of the quote are you referring to?

EDIT: whoops I now realized this is a reply to a different comment.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#100
A couple years ago she attended a technical conference and on the first day, she wore a dress...wore a nerdy t-shirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her

I'm not sure this really makes the case that its sexism at play. For example, if a guy wore a suit and tie to a conference, people might assume he's not a programmer.

Isn't this anecdote evidence that its the clothes, not the gender?

Post reply on HN