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The Hiring Post

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Re: The Hiring Post

#201
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... I already worked myself half to death in my twenties for two startups, I'm not going to study for a test as a second job for a year just to get a job at Google, although I still think it'd be fun and clearly challenging. ..." What's "good for google" right? @cableshaft how would you rate @tptacek s observations on hiring with what you observed at google?

Google still does interviews. They try to do them better --- eg separating the hire / no hire decision maker from the face to face interviewer. But I'd like to see them try out more work samples. I'm going through interviewer training at Google at the moment. (There's a few courses they like you to take before letting you loose on candidates.)

thx for replying @eru, I don't envy the task evaluating candidates. By work samples do you mean real code you've created to solve problems?

    “bring the same level of rigor to people-decisions 
     that we do to engineering decisions.” [0]
The weakness at google is understanding people. So I can understand the allure of HRA (HR Analytics) but feel google is missing something not intuitively understanding people and behaviour. [1]

[0] http://www.tlnt.com/2013/02/26/how-google-is-using-people-an... [1] Adam Bryant: 'In Head-Hunting, Big Data May Not Be Such a Big Deal' http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-b...

Re: The Hiring Post

#202
post #198
post #27

Author. I can talk in a pretty good amount of detail about how exactly our process worked, if anyone has any questions. And, to head off a concern a reviewer gave me: from 1997-2005, I was a full-time software developer; I shipped shrink-wrap boxed software on Windows and Unix in the 1990s, then appliances deployed at tier 1 ISPs. I'm a "software person" more than a "security person".

So what was the paper? De Mulder et al. 2013[1]? (Sorry not my field; just a guess!) [1] http://mhutter.org/papers/Mulder2014UsingBleichenbachersSolu...

Yep. I remember seeing this version though: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/346.pdf.

Not sure if there is any difference in content.

Re: The Hiring Post

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you make an effort to not read resumes. Do you explain that to people you interview during the first call? The reason I ask is that, if a hiring manager asked me things that are already written on my resume (e.g. what did you study in college?), I would definitely be annoyed, as my default expectation is that they should read the resume before the interview. Don't get me wrong, I understand and…

That's a red flag on the company though, isn't it? Why would they be asking you to recount what's on your resume?

this is true and at many companies the hiring process is so broken, the interviewer might have only an hour or less heads up that they will be interviewing someone. i have done that maybe twice, and since then i refuse tomdo interviews on candidates without more prep time.

on the reverse of that, i have sometimes avoided topics that the candidate was familiar with because i didnt see relevant experience on a resume. that was a major miss, and ive tried to avoid using resumes for shaping the interview topics since.. i see the resume now as more of a signal of what the person is interested in (since most of us carve huge swaths of our experiences out, and tailor them for the job we apply to anyways).

Re: The Hiring Post

#204

So, who feels like building a cloud based "work-sample tests" platform with me?

I've done a few online tests recently, and I was thinking of how to do a better one.

1) The main idea was to have the results of unit tests visible live. I've done a few tests where I found out I didn't get through even though the test rig says it works. It compiles, it gets the examples right, but there's some hidden test that failed. You'll never know why, even though it's probably not something surprising.

So just make it explicit. A bunch of lights for each test, a description of what the test is, and there you go.

2) That solves little problems like "given some set of numbers, how do I find some ridiculous property of those numbers?" type questions.

What you really need is something that tells you how people deal with complexity. I have a large problem, how do I solve it? There's always more than one right answer.

Here you might be better off doing some kind of subjective voting. People who are looking for work might find it comforting that other people in their situation are judging them. Or gratifying to be able to judge other people's skills. Perhaps there's some incentive structure that cleverly aligns this.

Re: The Hiring Post

#205
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what was the paper? De Mulder et al. 2013[1]? (Sorry not my field; just a guess!) [1] http://mhutter.org/papers/Mulder2014UsingBleichenbachersSolu...

Yep. I remember seeing this version though: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/346.pdf . Not sure if there is any difference in content.

Thanks! The one I linked to is just the extended version.

Re: The Hiring Post

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think hiring is broken for a different reason: workers, whether in software or any other industry, are viewed as less-than-equal ("second-class citizens"). Except in rare cases the entire hiring process in software especially, from start to finish, just about everywhere I've ever interviewed, seems to me designed to find reasons to reject candidates, and as a side-effect is (perhaps unintentionally) also designed t…

I agree. But why are they so choosy, and why do they complain about a lack of qualified candidates when their rejection rates are so high? I think it's the zero-sum game I mentioned. Firms are trying to outhire each other, like talent is some magic wand that can replace compelling products. There's a lot of snake oil in the industry, like SEO (now called "data science"), meant to substitute for things like vision, le…

I don't know if it's exactly a zero-sum game, but the rate at which talent is created doesn't seem to be amazingly high given that there are over 7 billion people on Earth. Certainly the talent pool seems to be a small fraction of the population.

Top universities, which for the most part feed the tech industry, face a similar problem at an earlier stage in the pipeline. It's been noted that less prestigious universities tend to draw their faculty from a very narrow selection of elite universities.

The education and labor markets are linked, and inefficient in ways which perhaps reflect the same underlying cause: scarcity of people with apparent ability, and self-interest wanting to profit from oligopolistic control of this incalculably valuable limited resource.

Re: The Hiring Post

#207
post #191
post #27

Author. I can talk in a pretty good amount of detail about how exactly our process worked, if anyone has any questions. And, to head off a concern a reviewer gave me: from 1997-2005, I was a full-time software developer; I shipped shrink-wrap boxed software on Windows and Unix in the 1990s, then appliances deployed at tier 1 ISPs. I'm a "software person" more than a "security person".

Let me first start by saying that I, too, dislike the prevailing interview process for software development jobs. While I agreed with many of your points, I could not stop thinking what a huge time burden of implementing something like what you propose, at scale. For a growing company with several work streams and projects hungry for talent, the interview approach you posit would never work. Another thing that came t…

Actually, go look for the 'tokenadult comments on work-sample tests to learn that this approach has been known for something like half a century to outperform interviews.

Re: The Hiring Post

#208
post #157
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mention that every serious applicant gets a 30-minute "first call" - what percentage of applicants get this call? How do you decide which candidates get this call? Also, what percentage of people who complete the work-sample task get an onsite interview? I'm asking these questions because I think most software companies who filter out people based on resumes and phone screens do it mainly because there are too ma…

As a candidate, I've soured on work-sample tests. Too many times, I've done the assignment, and not even gotten an interview (and I know I submitted a correct answer). As someone who already has a job, committing a large number of hours for the chance of an interview seems like a waste of time. If every employer demands a 5-10 hour work sample test before they even talk to you, that really isn't a scalable solution f…

Just a reminder: work-sample testing isn't the entirety of my recommendation, or even the majority. Employers need to do more than one thing to fix the hiring process.

Re: The Hiring Post

#209
I realize that I "should" like code samples, on the going ideology and considering the real problem of non-Fizzbuzzing programmers, but I don't find them useful and only do them when I'm unemployed (which hasn't been an issue for a few years). My problem with them, based on experience, is that they only provide downside. Used a language that the team doesn't like? Too bad. (Once I was told that I shouldn't have used Scala for a code sample, because the company-- a shitty Java Shop-- had recently fired someone who was a Scala advocate.) Didn't test your code using the style that the company implicitly expects? Points off. On the other hand, I've had the experience, in the past, of submitting samples that I was told were among the top 3 the company had ever seen... and still been offered a junior or mid-level role (this was in my mid-20s). So I don't see the upside. Why spend 12 hours of my own time on a code sample, only to get the same junior-level position I could have gotten anywhere else without homework?

If a kick-ass code sample could have turned a junior-level engineer position at 0.01% into a Director-equivalent (I like being a full-time coder and don't need reports, but I generally prefer that management see me as an equal, so I can get my job done, because a 10x engineer disempowered is a -3x engineer) with above-market compensation and legitimate equity, then I'd say... yeah, these things can spot early talent that nothing else does. But, as far as my experience has led me to think, code samples just provide another reason to reject someone. ("This guy used the TestEase framework instead of EasyTest. What, does he think it's 2013??")

I'm a good technical interviewer. I'll say it: I'm very good at it. The first thing I do is that I explain my methodology, rather than hiding what I'm after, so the candidate is at ease and not surprised by difficult questions. I tend to prefer a "rapid fire" approach to collect as much data as possible, so as soon as she's demonstrated that she knows what she's talking about, I'll move on to another question or topic... and I disclose that this isn't to be rude but so I can get the best read possible. I tell the candidate that, unless she is a 0.1% outlier, I will ask questions where she doesn't know the answers, and that's OK. It's not a percentage-based test where you need to get 80% right or it's a no-go, but it's a binary search on the competence spectrum. Generally I'll take something on her CV that I'm familiar with, research it a little bit, and start with a mid-level question that I'd expect 75% of the people I'd want to hire to get. (Statistically, you get your best results by adaptively asking questions at a level of difficulty where there's a 50% chance of success. But I aim for ~75% because most candidates aren't used to difficult interviews, and I don't want anyone to freak out.) That means that there's a 25% false-negative among good candidates, so if she doesn't know the answer (and it's OK to say "I don't know"; I'm in the top couple percent of my field and still have numerous blind spots) then I'll give her another question, also of moderate-high difficulty. (I don't start giving easy questions unless I've decided on a "No", and that's usually to put the candidate at ease, because I might still be wrong, and I want the next interviewer to get a clean read.) A good interviewing process provides multiple paths to success, not multiple ways to trip up and fail. I prefer to ask hard questions rather than easy ones because, as far as I'm concerned, 5 hard questions is multiple paths to success (if you get 1 or 2, you're solid; 3-4 means you're excellent) whereas 5 easy questions is multiple paths to failure.

I know I come off as an asshole on Hacker News (because it's turning into this festering pit of pro-corporate Wrongness on the Internet, and someone has to do something about it) but I try to be as nice as possible during interviews. I want to be tough, intellectually, but I want the person at ease as much as possible (which is why I explain, ahead of time, that I've been a notoriously difficult interviewer at every company where I've worked) so I don't get a false negative. I generally give a series of hard questions (not all related to each other) that seem relevant to her experience. I might give four, and a candidate who can competently answer one of them, I would generally say is worth considering. If she gets 2-3 out of 4 hard questions right, then she's probably a good hire and I'll recommend her.

I don't think hiring engineers is as hard as people make it out to be. I do like to see code, but I can usually tell the socially adept non-coders and charlatans from people who can actually program, even without looking at a line of code. I tend to prefer to hire for general intelligence than a specialized "hole" that someone is trying to fill, and the main question in my mind isn't, "Did she get all of my questions right?" but "Would I want to work with this person?" and "Would she add something to the team that's not already there?" I won't remember, 90 minutes later, whether she answered every single question right, and if she screwed up and said "Lasso" when she meant "elastic net", that's not terribly important... probably a mistake, and knowing the ideas is more important than the vocabulary. Besides, I care more about hiring the person who has the curiosity and drive to learn new things than hiring the one who already knows what we're "looking for", because the latter changes in most companies by the quarter, while a candidate's general ability doesn't.

Bad hires tend to come from two sources. One is when non-technical people override the technical interviewers, either formally or informally. It's best to have an environment where people can speak freely and, preferably, independently (i.e. each interviewer is on the spot to give feedback before discussing the candidate with others, but also feels safe giving an honest read). The worst thing that can happen is when an executive says, "This person is amazing", before any feedback has been given. In many companies, that means that the decision is already made and the engineers are just there to ratify it. That produces a lot of underqualified hires. The second is stack-ranking, which encourages teams to keep an "insurance incompetent" on hand, so that the middling and top players can safely focus on work, knowing that they won't end up in the bottom pool. In companies with stack-ranking, however, I would generally avoid interviewing as much as possible. (In fact, this may be one reason why companies that use stack-ranking tend to decline.) If stack-ranking is in play, you need to focus solely on (1) your main project, (2) getting credit for what you do (the politics of performance, which is more important than performance itself), and (3) being perceived as a top performer without actually trying to outrun the bear (outrun the other guy, and he gets eaten; outrunning the bear is impossible). If you're in a stack-rank company, then interviewing is that class of work that's good for the company but won't improve your Perf score, so you should avoid doing it as much as possible.

Re: The Hiring Post

#210
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had three work-sample exercises at Matasano. All told, they took candidates mid-single-digit hours to finish (many geeked out, or golfed on them; we did our best to keep this from happening --- you can read about this on our hiring page: http://www.matasano.com/careers This sounds onerous, but it is less onerous than the normal dev hiring process, which involves an onsite interview that eats the whole day. We did…

My concern here is that it seems to signal a lack of respect for the candidate if the company expects them to complete a task with no matching employee time. Interviews are even; both sides clearly have skin in the game; a work-sample test could be given to any number of people at basically no cost. This is somewhat alleviated by the knowledge that you do a phone screen with each person prior to that stage, but it st…

Interviews aren't even. How many hiring discussions on various parts of the internet have talked about putting tens of hours into studying for the "undergrad CS pop quiz" interview in vogue at so many companies? How many of those same discussions have talked about how hiring is a "distraction" from the "real jobs" of the engineers involved at the company?

The process is already badly asymmetric in addition to being artificial. At least the work sample ideal addresses one of those.

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