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Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

juliareda.eu

31–40 of 64 posts

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#31

He is so completely full of shit and blatantly trying to use rhetoric to justify the fact that he's going to vote for corporate interests that bought and paid for him. I can't help but get angry about this. What's that fallacy called where you fabricate a problem where there isn't one? Net neutrality advocates have never, ever wanted to limit what you're allowed to pay for as a consumer, and are pretty much unanimous…

I had no idea German politicians could be as virulently incoherent as Americans. Huh.

Yes, nothing is ever too stupid for him, but that's a new low (again).

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd like to pay $3/month for my Netflix traffic to not count towards any caps. Is that allowed? No, because it's discriminating against non-Netflix traffic. But there is certainly nothing wrong with paying the market rate for all your traffic to not count towards any caps (i.e. an uncapped connection).

Basically, the whole principle of Net Neutrality (as I understand it without knowing the details of the U.S. law, much less the European one) is: you bill data in the last mile to the consumer and you are not allowed to charge them based on the semantics or origin of the data. You do not charge the provider at all, unless they are the direct ISP you are peering with. You can however, give the customer a fast lane and…

It might be easier for the hospital to buy one pipe and then do the prioritization in-house.

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#33
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Net neutrality advocates have never, ever wanted to limit what you're allowed to pay for as a consumer." I'd like to pay $3/month for my Netflix traffic to not count towards any caps. Is that allowed? Now, can I ask my ISP to just bill Netflix, who (with more customers than any US fixed-wire ISP) can negotiate something less than $3/month?

> I'd like to pay $3/month for my Netflix traffic to not count towards any caps. Is that allowed? No, because it's discriminating against non-Netflix traffic. But there is certainly nothing wrong with paying the market rate for all your traffic to not count towards any caps (i.e. an uncapped connection).

Thank you for the clear, honest answer. So the great-grandparent post is misleading, and those in favor of government-enforced "net neutrality" do want to limit what I am "allowed to pay for as a consumer".

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#34
post #20
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Net neutrality advocates have never, ever wanted to limit what you're allowed to pay for as a consumer." I'd like to pay $3/month for my Netflix traffic to not count towards any caps. Is that allowed? Now, can I ask my ISP to just bill Netflix, who (with more customers than any US fixed-wire ISP) can negotiate something less than $3/month?

When you buy power to toast some bread, do you pay a different dollar-per-watt rate, depending on whether your toaster was made by the same company that owns the power plant? The problem with allowing special arrangements it that companies can--and do--use them in anticompetitive and manipulative ways.

Because net paths can be congested, there can be many different ways at different costs to deliver the same bits, and different net applications have different sensitivities to lag/loss, the electrons/bits analogy isn't very applicable.

Let ISPs try to abuse their momentary position. They're newish businesses in a rapidly-changing market and technological environment. Not one of them has the same "single provider at any cost" monopoly that phone companies had when the Title II telecom regulatory regime was designed.

Some of the companies they might try to shake down – Google, Apple, and others – have the capital to route around them with better services.

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#35
post #28
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Net neutrality advocates have never, ever wanted to limit what you're allowed to pay for as a consumer." I'd like to pay $3/month for my Netflix traffic to not count towards any caps. Is that allowed? Now, can I ask my ISP to just bill Netflix, who (with more customers than any US fixed-wire ISP) can negotiate something less than $3/month?

Are you willing to trade the warranty that every protocol that you are EVER going to use will be treated equal for a better TV reception NOW ?

If such a unequivocal "every protocol ever" warranty is such a good idea, let it be offered by the market, not imposed on every provider, and every consumer, even if they'd prefer another cheaper or more-flexible arrangement.

Here in the US, I had as much neutrality as I wanted or needed before the FCC got involved, from the 3+ wireline and 5+ wireless providers in my area (San Francisco). Can I and my chosen ISP opt out of this new set of constraints from DC lawyers/lobbyists/politicians?

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#36
post #17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Net neutrality advocates have never, ever wanted to limit what you're allowed to pay for as a consumer." I'd like to pay $3/month for my Netflix traffic to not count towards any caps. Is that allowed? Now, can I ask my ISP to just bill Netflix, who (with more customers than any US fixed-wire ISP) can negotiate something less than $3/month?

If the Netflix traffic was exempt from your data cap, you would be paying $(Netflix rate)/(Netflix usage) for Netflix, while you would be paying (monthly rate)/(other usage) other usage. That means different rates for different types of data. The core problem that net neutrality addresses is that, in allowing the ISP to charge different rates for different data, they can prioritize data based on their own interest, r…

I think that's a long way of answering my question, "no". Net neutrality advocates do want to restrict what I am "allowed to pay for as a consumer".

(Additionally, if I were to start a competitive ISP somewhere, use non-neutral routing as part of my value proposition, and attract willing customers to my service, the regulators would come and fine me, and then perhaps impound my assets and imprison me, because my service doesn't match their formulas.)

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#37
post #35
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to trade the warranty that every protocol that you are EVER going to use will be treated equal for a better TV reception NOW ?

If such a unequivocal "every protocol ever" warranty is such a good idea, let it be offered by the market, not imposed on every provider, and every consumer, even if they'd prefer another cheaper or more-flexible arrangement. Here in the US, I had as much neutrality as I wanted or needed before the FCC got involved, from the 3+ wireline and 5+ wireless providers in my area (San Francisco). Can I and my chosen ISP opt…

>let it be offered by the market

1) But that is the whole point: It is warranted, because it is imposed on the providers( at least until law changes). It is quite obvious that ISPs have no interest in doing so by them selves.

Netflix was slow because Verizon throttled their traffic, not because they didn't have the capacities to route it properly. They simply wanted a piece of the Netflix Pie. So net neutrality will prevent that not cause it.

2) This is not about the big content providers at all. They would simply pay the ISPs a fee and pass it on to their customers. So net neutrality actually prevents increased consumer fees.

>I had as much neutrality as I wanted or needed before the FCC got involved, from the 3+ wireline and 5+ wireless providers in my area (San Francisco)

3) The fact that you can choose from so many ISPs in SF is good for you, but you are probably well aware that in more rural parts of the country this is not the case. What will people in those areas do, if their only ISP decides to throttle a protocol that is important to them?

4) Most importantly, the traffic we create is growing constantly. Not only Downstream but Upstream. Especially since more and more "services" become decentralized. Decentralizing architectures is one of the biggest challenges we face today as internet citizens. Decentralized search engines, social networks and who knows what will come in the next decades. Decentralized Systems are more democratic, enable people to actively take part and give us back a piece of independence from the goverment (no, i am not an Anti-Gov't lunatic) as well as corporations. But for that we need to have our packets routed from A to B without being throttled, because some ISP cannot make a quick buck out of it.

Thank You for Your time!

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#38
post #34
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you buy power to toast some bread, do you pay a different dollar-per-watt rate, depending on whether your toaster was made by the same company that owns the power plant? The problem with allowing special arrangements it that companies can--and do--use them in anticompetitive and manipulative ways.

Because net paths can be congested, there can be many different ways at different costs to deliver the same bits, and different net applications have different sensitivities to lag/loss, the electrons/bits analogy isn't very applicable. Let ISPs try to abuse their momentary position. They're newish businesses in a rapidly-changing market and technological environment. Not one of them has the same "single provider at…

Not one [ISP] has the same "single provider at any cost" monopoly that phone companies had when the Title II telecom regulatory regime was designed.

Isn't one of the major arguments for net neutrality that, at least in some parts of the world, the above situation is effectively what is happening today, and therefore the local ISP can effectively hold the entire community hostage?

Re: Net neutrality is a “Taliban-like issue”, says Europe’s top digital policymaker

#40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had no idea German politicians could be as virulently incoherent as Americans. Huh.

Yes, nothing is ever too stupid for him, but that's a new low (again).

FWIW, Oettinger is something of an expert in discovering "new lows". He could be really funny if he wasn't in a position where people actually take him serious.

It is not surprising he would just parrot the talking points of the telcos. I sometimes wonder, though, if he actually knows what complete BS he is emitting or if he actually believes that (and I am not sure which alternative I would prefer).

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