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The Hiring Post

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151–160 of 266 posts

Re: The Hiring Post

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't at all . Yeah, sure, I can buzz your fizz with my eyes closed in brainfuck. But that's just measuring language facility. The real tests are more topical, and more complex: is there a way to make this code run faster? There are two types of good candidates that will get that question: 1) the kind who have run into the problem before and know the answer stone cold, and tell you instantly 2) the kind that have n…

What about kind 3, the ones that can derive the solution from scratch, in their heads? I thought that was the point of most of those questions. Like "given two linked lists, what's the fastest way to determine if they share any nodes (not values, but actual nodes)"? MS gave me that one in a phone screen and I'd never written a linked list before. But if you actually know what a linked list is, this should be simple f…

You end up having no way to evaluate candidates. You have no way to distinguish the following -

1. Those who had seen the question before, decided not to tell you they had, and faked figuring it out.

2. Those who had never seen the question before, but were able to figure it out.

You can, of course, distinguish them from the following, but you can't distinguish the following from each other.

3. Those who have never seen the problem before, could figure it out, but do poorly in the pressures of an interview.

4. Those who have never seen the problem before, and could never figure it out.

And it is -possible- you get the honest candidate -

5. They've seen the problem before, they -tell- you they've seen the problem before, and go on to solve it easily.

#1 looks the best, and you've learned nothing about them (and they have nothing in their favor other than having seen the problem before). #2 looks okay, but pales in comparison to #1, despite having actually demonstrated ability. #3 looks poor, but you have actually learned nothing about them, and they may in fact be absolutely amazing, except not good with interview pressures. #4 looks poor, and is indistinguishable from #3 (unless they do so badly that it's clear they have no idea what they're doing, rather than just being off in the weeds somewhere). #5 you now know is honest, and that they've boned up for your trivia challenge, but nothing else.

You haven't measured anything you set out to measure. You wanted coding ability and/or ability to reason out a problem; all you got was whether off the top of their head they were able to solve this particular problem. If that was what the job entailed, parroting back answers from Cracking the Coding Interview and the like, then you'd have a good test, but that's probably not what you need in a developer.

Re: The Hiring Post

#152
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think the opposite is true; in appsec, the final work product is a list of vulns, so if you want to cheat, it only takes 4 minutes talking to anyone else who has ever succeeded in the process before. For a dev interview, taking something your team has built and scooping out some of its functionality seems like a test that is significantly harder to cheat on. For my part: we ran this process for over two y…

The problem I'd see with using your own app and taking out some functionality, is that the first few people you throw at it, you have no data points to verify against. I.e., they do it 'wrong' (it's incomplete, it's not what you meant, whatever). What does that mean? They don't have the domain knowledge your team has, and that may be important. I'd think better would be to have a few of your devs come up with a small…

I've long thought that to come up with a good work-product test a company should continually save off their own bugs to put into a broken test app, after which candidates can fix the bugs and the company can see how candidates solve the problems compared to the people they've already hired. The actual production code is the baseline.

Re: The Hiring Post

#153
"Despite training them not to, they routinely factored “confidence” into their result. Biases like that are pernicious!"

pernicious - Having a harmful effect, especially in a gradual or subtle way.

New word for me. :)

Re: The Hiring Post

#154
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you get the job? I have the interview next week. :S

No, they passed, but invited me to apply again in a year and a half. That was a couple years ago, and their recruiters have started emailing again, so I guess I didn't do too terrible. When they told me they passed they also told me that "some people get passed the first time and then study for the next 18 months and do amazing the next time!" and I just don't have the time for that. I already worked myself half to d…

(specifically figuring out what algorithm would be best for different real world problems, especially in regards to various Google products, including those you've never really used before) and practicing writing code on a whiteboard before you go.

Sounds like a nightmare.

Re: The Hiring Post

#155
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be carful not to forget reading off a semi-colon. Syntax counts!

Just imagine if it were a whitespace sensitive language like Coffeescript. "Newline. Tab. Tab. Tab. Tab."

"newline, indent one tab beyond the previous line."

Re: The Hiring Post

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the candidate gets to do this at their own pace, from home. If so, a good dev shouldn't have trouble learning enough Ruby/Rails to figure this out.

How then do you control for time pressure?

Do you mean time pressure in the way that conveys that the company has poor project management? If so, you should probably find some way to explain that up front (set expectations) and non-Rails people might self-select out.

Re: The Hiring Post

#157
post #143
post #27

Author. I can talk in a pretty good amount of detail about how exactly our process worked, if anyone has any questions. And, to head off a concern a reviewer gave me: from 1997-2005, I was a full-time software developer; I shipped shrink-wrap boxed software on Windows and Unix in the 1990s, then appliances deployed at tier 1 ISPs. I'm a "software person" more than a "security person".

You mention that every serious applicant gets a 30-minute "first call" - what percentage of applicants get this call? How do you decide which candidates get this call? Also, what percentage of people who complete the work-sample task get an onsite interview? I'm asking these questions because I think most software companies who filter out people based on resumes and phone screens do it mainly because there are too ma…

As a candidate, I've soured on work-sample tests. Too many times, I've done the assignment, and not even gotten an interview (and I know I submitted a correct answer).

As someone who already has a job, committing a large number of hours for the chance of an interview seems like a waste of time.

If every employer demands a 5-10 hour work sample test before they even talk to you, that really isn't a scalable solution from the viewpoint of a candidate. I could easily put in 100 hours into works-sample tests without getting a single decent interview, so now I just refuse them.

Re: The Hiring Post

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you make an effort to not read resumes. Do you explain that to people you interview during the first call? The reason I ask is that, if a hiring manager asked me things that are already written on my resume (e.g. what did you study in college?), I would definitely be annoyed, as my default expectation is that they should read the resume before the interview. Don't get me wrong, I understand and…

We weren't super transparent about it, but we tried really hard in a lot of other ways to take hiring seriously as a customer service problem, so maybe we came out ahead anyways.

Thank you for the response Thomas. That makes a lot of sense.

Re: The Hiring Post

#159
post #27

Author. I can talk in a pretty good amount of detail about how exactly our process worked, if anyone has any questions. And, to head off a concern a reviewer gave me: from 1997-2005, I was a full-time software developer; I shipped shrink-wrap boxed software on Windows and Unix in the 1990s, then appliances deployed at tier 1 ISPs. I'm a "software person" more than a "security person".

Have you ever read The Checklist Manifesto [0]? I may be reading too much into this post, but the lessons you learned from this interview process have frighteningly close parallels to the lessons in the books. I doubt the book had any influence on your interview process, seeing as it was published after the interviews were formalized, but the book seems like it might have new lessons. For example, a good portion of d…

[deleted]

Re: The Hiring Post

#160
post #27

Author. I can talk in a pretty good amount of detail about how exactly our process worked, if anyone has any questions. And, to head off a concern a reviewer gave me: from 1997-2005, I was a full-time software developer; I shipped shrink-wrap boxed software on Windows and Unix in the 1990s, then appliances deployed at tier 1 ISPs. I'm a "software person" more than a "security person".

Have you ever read The Checklist Manifesto [0]? I may be reading too much into this post, but the lessons you learned from this interview process have frighteningly close parallels to the lessons in the books. I doubt the book had any influence on your interview process, seeing as it was published after the interviews were formalized, but the book seems like it might have new lessons. For example, a good portion of d…

Checklist of Rationality Habits: http://rationality.org/checklist/

discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8830903

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