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Fired

zachholman.com

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Re: Fired

#171

Post by swalberg »

ethagnawl wrote: post #167
vhodges wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to what Europeans have, but as a Canadian I can. It's not all it's cracked up to be. In BC MSP (Medical Services Plan) is $54/Month for an individual and it's mandatory whether you're employed or not. The amount is probably different in other provinces as medical is a provincial concern (and indeed, coverage varies from province to province). Employers usually offer extended medical, covering things lik…

The MSP side of what you've described sounds to me like _all it's cracked up to be_. I live in the U.S. and recently enrolled my family of two in the cheapest healthcare plan available (high deductible, no dental, no vision) through the Freelancers Union - which I'm required to do as part of the Affordable Healthcare Act - and it's going to cost me USD $814 per month ... for the next 35 years. In today's dollars, tha…

This is on top of a 46% marginal income tax rate and 12% sales tax.

I don't know what the BC plan is like, but in Manitoba if I didn't have any coverage through my employer I'd be paying for almost everything except visiting a doctor or ER. And you're still stuck in a line to see specialists. It's not unheard of to schedule an appointment with a specialist a year out.

Re: Fired

#173

Post by methehack »

mrb wrote: post #13

Human nature is really amazing. After the reading the first 4 paragraph I saw his openness and honesty. I felt compassion and trust. And I was already thinking to myself "Zach really looks like a cool guy; if he is skilled I would probably hire him", without attaching any significance whatsoever to the fact he was fired. If you are reading this, Zach, continue to be open, honest, accept your mistakes, show you do lea…

The graceful and honest way he expresses himself made me think "who the heck fired this guy?" I know, I know.. All about fit at point in time... Still, what a thoughtful guy. Courageous too. Takes a lot to be so open at such a vulnerable time.

Re: Fired

#174

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #126
davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

> The point being, if I started a new company tomorrow, I would, without a doubt, go and try to hire some of those same people to help me start it. And maybe now, as a more capable manager than I was then, maybe some would make it longer, I don't get this. Are you saying part of the reason you fired them was because you weren't a capable manager, and didn't identify ways to keep a valuable asset as the company change…

The reality is that people and businesses change and sometimes those changes don't align.

Mature professionals understand this and if you're fired simply because you are very competent, but don't work well with the new business behavior, it's not surprising that the person who fired you would hire you for a different role. It is just not always possible to find a good role for someone in a particular business.

I'm sure it's rare, but I can certainly understand how it can happen.

Re: Fired

#175

Post by 0xdeadbeefbabe »

smacktoward wrote: post #111
davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

In his classic book Accidental Empires ( http://www.amazon.com/Accidental-Empires-Silicon-Millions-Co... ), Robert X. Cringely wrote that if you think of a market as an invasion beach you can think of three kinds of employees at tech companies: commandos, infantry, and police. Commandos are people who love challenges and hate structure. They'll happily take on missions that other people think are crazy or impossible,…

I feel like this story ignores something important, something about the market being the same in spite of changes in the company.

Re: Fired

#176

Post by api »

jghn wrote: post #117
toomuchtodo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

It seems to stand in stark conflict with the difficulty of finding good people. If you have to let someone go for other than cash flow or pivot reasons, it seems to me like an admission that you made a mistake hiring them. Obviously this happens, but every time it does you probably ought to self-examine and ask why you hired them to begin with and tweak your interview/recruiting process accordingly. Firing should not be a drop of the hat common thing unless something is wrong, unless I am missing something or not sufficiently ValleyTrendy.

Re: Fired

#177

Post by IndianAstronaut »

rdtsc wrote: post #63
MCRed wrote: post #44

Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't…

When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under. That is a good heuristic for future pain and frustration. Managers who are good engineers don't always manage well. Managers who have never been engineers are usually worse. > When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't understand what their doing, by definition you cannot man…

>When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under. That is a good heuristic for future pain and frustration.

My experience has actually been the exact opposite. Working with an engineering manager and an engineering team can be just as frustrating since they often want to build the "perfect product" instead of getting a working model up and running first or a decent prototype.

It can also mean that we have to use the engineers pet technology instead of something that may work better for the task at hand.

Right now I am in some trouble because I used an alternate and quicker technology(flask) to get a prototype up for some customers. It took weeks instead of the usual months to get stuff up and running. Business is happy and understand this is a prototype. Engineering manager is pissed because we should only have built it with our standard framework and not have had the prototype.

Re: Fired

#178

Post by aturek »

jghn wrote: post #117
toomuchtodo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

This is a great rule of thumb for employees and managers both: neither side should ever be too surprised. Whether it's performance evaluations or firing/quitting decisions, let the other side know if you're unhappy, and talk about it regularly (at least, one-on-one). Every time I haven't talked to managers about this sort of thing, I've regretted it.

If you're leaving a company, you might not have told the manager that you were interviewing around, but you certainly should have talked to them about being unhappy.

If you're firing an employee, they should have known (almost as long as you've known) that there was some culture mismatch, or that their performance wasn't meeting expectations, or whatever.

There are of course always exceptions, where you think someone is crazy or an asshole, but most people are reasonable and can handle hearing that things aren't great.

Re: Fired

#179

Post by engendered »

gaius wrote: post #130
davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

Getting fired and getting laid off are totally different things. These days there is no stigma attached to the latter.

Aside from the fact that many people use the term interchangeably, getting "laid off" often means "you got fired at a company that doesn't actively fire individually, but rather fires en masse". Being "laid off" from a company like Microsoft is equivalent to being outright fired at many other shops.

Re: Fired

#180

Post by jotux »

MCRed wrote: post #62
wongarsu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's the part of being fired you usually don't discuss publicly. It always makes somebody look bad and nobody wants to burn bridges

But part of the problem is that in a meritocracy you need people to know who the bad actors are. It seems pretty obvious from outside Github that something has gone rotten in the company over the past couple of years, and the is the latest of the smells. Now any one of us could end up hiring that rotten apple from github in the future, if we don't know who it is. Of course you don't want to slander or libel people, b…

>meritocracy

Has anyone ever seen an actual meritocratic work place? Eight years working and I'm convinced that it's nearly impossible for small organizations to implement and outright impossible for large organizations.

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