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Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

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Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#101
post #78
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and try and blow up the deal or company Never do that. Not only does it create bad blood, which could only be bad for you in the long run, it may also leave you open to a lawsuit. The business world is often about shoveling shit. People who always get their revenge tend to have no friends and lots of burned bridges.

yes, it's expected that you'll never do or say anything bad about past jobs(/companies/environments/people). But other side of this status quo is enabling all the assholes to be assholes and just helping them to continue behaving/acting like they do. that's a bit offtopic though.

This type of withholding of information prevents others from making informed choices.

"Don't burn your bridges" implies that these are bridges worth preserving--sometimes they aren't, and you're doing others a favor by letting them know.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#102
Given the amount of money involved, the potential damage to your career, and the possibility that you will have deadlines related to tax returns/payments coming up after which you might not be able to fix some of this, I would suggest you do the following, concurrently:

1. Find an accountant.

2. Find a lawyer.

3. Keep written notes of everything, including copies of any relevant electronic communications and details of anything significant that was said to you verbally or on a call, by whom, and when.

4. Possibly start recording any future calls, but check the legality of doing so in your jurisdiction and any notice requirements first. (Don't ask the Internet, ask your lawyer.)

5. Don't talk to anyone at work about what you're doing until you've received proper professional advice.

Make sure the accountant and lawyer are yours, not the company's. Their advisors will have a conflict of interest and can't/shouldn't advise you personally as well. In any case, there is a possibility that the company lawyers and/or accountants have committed serious breaches of professional ethics and/or crimes here.

Make sure all your records are completely under your control, so if they kick you out of their electronic systems and the building at a moment's notice you still have all your evidence.

And from a practical point of view, don't assume malice or that this will end badly, because it may well just have been a naive but innocent screw-up, but do assume that whatever happens you might need another job by the end of this process and plan accordingly just in case.

And obviously don't post any more details publicly.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#103
post #90
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not only does it create bad blood, which could only be bad for you in the long run, it may also leave you open to a lawsuit. Don't buy this fud. There's nothing illegal about walking away from a shitty deal. Whatever your motives just plainly state "this deal no longer makes sense for me". If you're a great engineer, then have some self respect, and walk away from a shitty deal. Go somewhere else where they respect…

Walking away from a deal is one thing - deliberate harm is something else. At one point I was at a company that had built a web product for another company. The external party decided they weren't going to pay their bill, and at the time we'd been covering the cost of hosting several of their servers for months. Obviously our first reaction was that we'd just turn them off but our lawyers told us in no uncertain term…

I'm curious how that story played out.

Was the external party eventually forced to pay the bill for hosting their service during the time it was being disputed since you couldn't just turn it off?

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#104
You have every right to feel disgusted and cheated among other things but don't assume those feelings to be true.

However hard it might be, keep your mind clear and free of things that might upset you. Remove yourself from the circumstance mentally as if you were advocating on a friend's behalf. Don't let your emotions cloud your judgement. Sometimes you can become so jaded that you manufacture self-fulfilling prophecies.

With a clear head, exercise every option possible. I'd absolutely contact a lawyer and plan for a future that looks dramatically different but don't jump ship quite yet. Talk with your legal advisers about what the best next steps are and carefully execute in conformance with their advice.

Figure out what's really going on but be prepared in every aspect possible (emotionally, financially, legally) for whatever might be around the next corner. Don't get caught on your heels.

Best luck to you; it seems like a very unfortunate situation.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capital gains would not be recognized if you exercised the options and held onto the shares. That's not exactly accurate in the US. You need to pay income tax - not capital gains - on the spread between the strike price and the fair market value. Since the company is not publicly traded, the fair market value needs to be assessed. The IRS has rules on how to do this, but many companies use independent third party a…

he can't pay income tax if he's never received the income. "I will be left with a tax bill on $10,000s of additional "income" that I never received"

Actually, and unfortunately, in the US, that's how it works.

His paper gains are taxed. It's not quite "income" but it's taxed that way.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#106
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walking away from a deal is one thing - deliberate harm is something else. At one point I was at a company that had built a web product for another company. The external party decided they weren't going to pay their bill, and at the time we'd been covering the cost of hosting several of their servers for months. Obviously our first reaction was that we'd just turn them off but our lawyers told us in no uncertain term…

I'm curious how that story played out. Was the external party eventually forced to pay the bill for hosting their service during the time it was being disputed since you couldn't just turn it off?

Good question!

They tricked us into signing up to some sort of gentleman's agreement where they folded the company and re-launched as a charity (or something weird like that). Basically, they said, if you chase us for the money, you'll take us down, then you won't get any money. If you let us do this our way you'll get your money if it all works out. So they fairly well held us to ransom.

I don't recall how it all worked out in the end but we definitely got some (all?) of the money - I recall my boss telling me we'd received a payment a good year or two later!

I was pretty amazed at how few rights and options we had in the situation. We had the lawyers talking us through our options at every step and they said there wasn't a lot else we could do.

That was one of a catalogue of mischievous plays I witnessed there. We were a company that were very honest and ethically sound so it was always sort of shocking to see others acting dishonestly.

The whole situation ended up being somewhat overshadowed by the accountant nicking £50k from the company savings!

I've definitely learnt to make sure you're covered as much as possible in business. Always get everything in writing and be aware that sometimes people don't act in good faith. At my current startup, my co-founder and I have a fairly all guns blazing approach to people not paying their invoices on time (we start chasing before it's even late).

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#107
post #98
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct for Canada too - Please seek advice of a tax professional and not on the internet however: In a private corporation where an employee is issued stock options, a taxable benefit exists ONLY when you sell the shares for a profit. Unless this is a public company or a non-Canadian controlled company, you will not face a tax liability. Just make sure both owners and any majority investor is a Canadian resi…

> In a private corporation where an employee is issued stock options, a taxable benefit exists ONLY when you sell the shares for a profit. I really don't think so. There are many cases in Canada of people getting screwed by buying and selling at the wrong time. If you buy options and immediately sell them, you have the cash to pay the taxes. If you buy and hold, you are likely to have tax owing. i.e. buy a share at $…

I don't agree. If the shares dropped to nil, you would be able to claim an ABIL (allowable business investment loss) for 100% of the drop in share price.

For example: 1) Your share is worth 0.0001. 2) The company goes bankrupt/insolvent/no longer carries on business 3) You include $10-0.0001 * 50% in your income as employment income for the benefit you recieved from options. The tax base of the shares is now $10. 4) You claim a business investment loss of $10 per share. This can be deducted against all income. This in effect negatives 2x the tax you would have had to pay.

Please keep in mind this does not apply to public companies or large non-small business companies. Only to this example he has proposed. Again i suggest approaching a tax accountant.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#108
The best approach is to go directly to the founders and ask them to help you. Literaly use those words. Such an approach makes them stake their integrity and avoid hostility. Ask them for assistance. Best way to resolve a conflict. Keep calm, talk with the people involved and voice your concerns directly. Be cool, don't act frantic. Ask every possible question, and tell them how it made you feel, do not keep you thoughts hidden, level with them. The most important - be patient and cool. Find out everything you can. It will become clear quickly, either you're being screwed or there's been a mistake. Then you can choose a course of action. Even if you're being screwed, act cool be patient and firm. Deal with it professionally.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#109
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he can't pay income tax if he's never received the income. "I will be left with a tax bill on $10,000s of additional "income" that I never received"

Actually, and unfortunately, in the US, that's how it works. His paper gains are taxed. It's not quite "income" but it's taxed that way.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#110
post #73

Group everyone involved into a room, stand in front of the only exit, and calmly announce that nobody gets out until you receive an explanation. State the facts neutrally as you know them, and ask if they are accurate. Actually let people out once they have explained. There is no reason to start kicking ass until you have a complete picture. Once you have a complete picture, decide whether it's time to start kicking…

I'm going to assume you're not being literal, but FYI, I sat on a kidnapping jury that was essentially this. Don't trap people, even for a moment; it's quite illegal.

I'm being literal. It works.

If you look at my posting history, you'll notice that I have little care for the laws of man. Do the right thing, always. If it's legal, good for the law. If it's illegal, break the law.

But break it properly, so that after you're done breaking it, it will take a long time for legalists to repair it and people have time to consider that they may be better off without it.

Now in this case, locking people in with you is excessive. But, making it clear that it's easier to say truth than to push you aside is appropriate.

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