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Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

latimes.com

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Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#11

Post by riskable »

rabbyte wrote: post #5
riskable wrote: post #4

> She had built a prototype for a travel website, she said, a feature to auto-suggest cities and airports based on the first three letters typed into the search field, fixing a long-standing problem. > Her male bosses told her she'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were male. In the end, the project was handed to someone else,…

I'm curious. If the "default deny" theory pans out and we discover it does indeed result in less women, why would you conclude that sexism is not a factor? Seems to me it would be evidence of systemic sexism, reinforced by an inability to see that the rules and structures provide more mobility for some and not others. For the record, I don't think women can't cope with "default deny" mode and I do think all genders h…

How could you conclude that "default deny" has anything at all to do with a persons's sex? People aren't being denied/excluded because of their gender they're being denied/excluded because enterprise IT culture sucks.

It is the opposite of an "inclusive" culture but it should be noted how it became that way: Through decades of non-technical people interfering with technical decision making and a political culture that measures success--and power--by the amount of people who work for you. Eventually you get to the point where someone--an outsider--contributing work to your project feels like a threat to your very existence.

> However, when the hierarchy is dominated by one gender, there is an additional hurdle that the privileged gender will not encounter.

What hurdle would that be? In addition to not being on the right team or having the right job title you need the right sex? I don't think so. Silos, NIH syndrome, and similar don't take sex into account. They impact all genders, races, and whatnot equally.

I'm sure sexism exists in IT as it does in all industries and careers (especially the subconscious kind) but the worker-hostile situations that are all-too-common in IT are not sexism. They may drive out or scare off women--I don't know--but they're not inherently sexist.

Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#13

Post by nkurz »

I have a "game theory" interpretation for which I'd be interested in feedback: women are often treated poorly at tech companies because it's simply not in the self-interest of their well-paid currently-employed mostly-male[1] co-workers to increase the size of the labor pool.

Currently, competent American tech workers are paid very high salaries due to the lack of suitable replacements. If the size of the pool were to dramatically increase, either due to a more open immigration policy or improved gender balance, their ability to command their current salaries would decline.

It's reasonably accepted that many American workers are against an open immigration policy, and it is is possible to voice this concern in socially acceptable ways. I don't know of any socially acceptable to say the same regarding reducing the pool of competing women, but the self-benefit seems about the same.

Many of the proposed changes are directed at changing hiring practices, but it seems clearly to management's benefit to have a greater pool of qualified applicants, and no particular reason to believe that they'd pass over the opportunity to hire a qualified applicant.

But there's lots of reason to believe that an in-demand job holder would seek to keep themselves in this position. This makes me think that if you want to solve the "gender imbalance problem" in tech, it would help to make it in the self-interest of the current well-compensated employees.

How would one do this?

[1] Interestingly, the same argument applies to women currently working in tech: is it in their self-interest to have more women seeking jobs in tech? Do the women in tech consistently treat other women well?

Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#14

Post by rabbyte »

riskable wrote: post #11
rabbyte wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. If the "default deny" theory pans out and we discover it does indeed result in less women, why would you conclude that sexism is not a factor? Seems to me it would be evidence of systemic sexism, reinforced by an inability to see that the rules and structures provide more mobility for some and not others. For the record, I don't think women can't cope with "default deny" mode and I do think all genders h…

How could you conclude that "default deny" has anything at all to do with a persons's sex? People aren't being denied/excluded because of their gender they're being denied/excluded because enterprise IT culture sucks. It is the opposite of an "inclusive" culture but it should be noted how it became that way: Through decades of non-technical people interfering with technical decision making and a political culture tha…

You misunderstood me. I specifically said all genders have to face that behavior and that "default deny" likely has no unique impact on women. So I don't understand why you think I'm arguing for the opposite case. Still, you seem pretty confident that sexism exists somewhere at the same time you can't point to it. Is it possible you're excluding possibilities to create a more comfortable problem?

Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#15

Post by riskable »

nkurz wrote: post #13

I have a "game theory" interpretation for which I'd be interested in feedback: women are often treated poorly at tech companies because it's simply not in the self-interest of their well-paid currently-employed mostly-male[1] co-workers to increase the size of the labor pool. Currently, competent American tech workers are paid very high salaries due to the lack of suitable replacements. If the size of the pool were t…

I don't think your idea holds water because it is based on an assumption that women are treated poorly. Rather, more poorly than men. Is there any evidence that women are treated any worse than men in IT?

Equal opportunity is not the same thing as equal outcomes. If the culture of IT isn't appealing to women it doesn't necessarily mean sexism is involved. Sexism seems like a heck of a lot easier to overcome than, say, NIH syndrome or the fact that changing jobs is more effective at increasing pay than asking for (or relying on) raises.

Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#16

Post by [deleted] »

nkurz wrote: post #13

I have a "game theory" interpretation for which I'd be interested in feedback: women are often treated poorly at tech companies because it's simply not in the self-interest of their well-paid currently-employed mostly-male[1] co-workers to increase the size of the labor pool. Currently, competent American tech workers are paid very high salaries due to the lack of suitable replacements. If the size of the pool were t…

[deleted]

Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#17

Post by riskable »

rabbyte wrote: post #14
riskable wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could you conclude that "default deny" has anything at all to do with a persons's sex? People aren't being denied/excluded because of their gender they're being denied/excluded because enterprise IT culture sucks. It is the opposite of an "inclusive" culture but it should be noted how it became that way: Through decades of non-technical people interfering with technical decision making and a political culture tha…

You misunderstood me. I specifically said all genders have to face that behavior and that "default deny" likely has no unique impact on women. So I don't understand why you think I'm arguing for the opposite case. Still, you seem pretty confident that sexism exists somewhere at the same time you can't point to it. Is it possible you're excluding possibilities to create a more comfortable problem?

Sexism is pervasive. It's everywhere and it impacts both sexes (and especially those who don't easily fit into typical sex stereotypes). When it happens at a conscious or institutional level we can step in and correct it. When it happens at a subconscious level we don't (usually) notice.

For example, if I say, "A schoolteacher friend of mine" in conversation what do you think the odds are that people will assume I'm talking about a woman? What about if I said, "my mechanic"?

They're stereotypes and they're pervasive, unavoidable, and can be quite sexist. Whenever you look at someone or even hear their voice--even someone you know very well--you will make assumptions about that person whether you want to or not. There's probably nothing we can do about it.

What we can do something about is institutionalized sexism. I don't think IT has that. Instead what we have is institutionalized enterprise politics and sociopath CEOs[1].

1. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/drishtikone/2013/10/are-ceos-an...

Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#18

Post by macho_pikachu »

darkwingduck wrote: post #8
DownvoteMeToWin wrote: post #6

I'm very interested if these theories-via-media used to explain women's participation in tech are universal enough to apply to waste management and construction industries as well. Isn't testability important to theory?

It isn't a theory as much as a religion, requiring faith rather than any kind of facts as to problem or proposed solution. Welcome to the inquisition.

Its more like a cargo cult. Its not really actively harmful to talk about misogyny in tech culture. Its just not doing any good. Like wearing coconut headphones. Or an anti-drunk driving campaign by kinder-gardeners targeting other kinder-gardeners.

Re: Why are women leaving the tech industry in droves?

#19

Post by nkurz »

riskable wrote: post #15
nkurz wrote: post #13

I have a "game theory" interpretation for which I'd be interested in feedback: women are often treated poorly at tech companies because it's simply not in the self-interest of their well-paid currently-employed mostly-male[1] co-workers to increase the size of the labor pool. Currently, competent American tech workers are paid very high salaries due to the lack of suitable replacements. If the size of the pool were t…

I don't think your idea holds water because it is based on an assumption that women are treated poorly. Rather, more poorly than men. Is there any evidence that women are treated any worse than men in IT? Equal opportunity is not the same thing as equal outcomes. If the culture of IT isn't appealing to women it doesn't necessarily mean sexism is involved. Sexism seems like a heck of a lot easier to overcome than, say…

I was temporarily accepting this, as it's the premise of the article. My guess would be that there is considerable evidence, but little proof, and even less quantification of effect size. There certainly could be other explanations for why women would be avoiding high paying jobs for which they are qualified, but there does seem to be something about technology that is different than other demanding fields with lifestyle tradeoffs such as law and medicine.
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