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Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

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Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#41
post #32
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine writing this off. He's been seriously wronged, to the tune of quite a lot of money. The raise alone (promised in writing, never delivered) is probably substantial, considering it's been about a year since it should have happened. The tax issue seems less clear, but I have a hard time imagining you wouldn't be liable if you hid important investment details from a shareholder and therefore caused him a…

It doesn't really pay to win $50k in a lawsuit paying $30k on legal fees, plus the years it takes for the legal system to run its course. A lawsuit is a lot of stress. There's no guarantee he'd win. The corporation can be bankrupt when/if he wins. You can't keep working there after you sue them or your lawyer sends them a threat letter. There's no point continuing to work with dishonest people. Given their dishonesty…

The impression I'm getting is that he's going to have to pay taxes on the difference between the strike price of $0.0001/share and the investment price that's now established, to the tune of paying $10,000s of dollars for what are likely worthless shares if/when he stops working for them.

If that is correct, at this point nobody wins. At best from his viewpoint, the company covers his tax bill (or I suppose establishes a new investment price a lot lower through bankruptcy or whatever). Much more likely is that he's going to have to weigh whether suing them and the likely payoff of that will be higher than the tax bill; hmmm, he'd better get a reading on whether he can pierce the corporate veil and go after them directly. Heck, he also needs to see if he can arrange a payment plan with the tax authorities, as others have mentioned; that bill will be due very soon, whatever the final outcome of a lawsuit is.

They're indeed snakes, the shares are indeed almost certainly worthless, but not for the purposes of his 2014 personal tax year :(. ADDED: unless, as others have pointed out, the investment was structured as debt instead of equity.

Yet another example why non-founder options/stock is frequently a negative.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#42

Just leave, do your own thing. Ask for 83b elections. Lawyer will cost more than your tax bill

"Ask for 83b elections."

He's in Canada. As others have pointed out, at the very least he needs to engage an accountant to find out exactly what the tax implication are.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#43
post #32
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine writing this off. He's been seriously wronged, to the tune of quite a lot of money. The raise alone (promised in writing, never delivered) is probably substantial, considering it's been about a year since it should have happened. The tax issue seems less clear, but I have a hard time imagining you wouldn't be liable if you hid important investment details from a shareholder and therefore caused him a…

It doesn't really pay to win $50k in a lawsuit paying $30k on legal fees, plus the years it takes for the legal system to run its course. A lawsuit is a lot of stress. There's no guarantee he'd win. The corporation can be bankrupt when/if he wins. You can't keep working there after you sue them or your lawyer sends them a threat letter. There's no point continuing to work with dishonest people. Given their dishonesty…

All important points. If he is financially strapped by a five-figure tax liability (presumably that's the income he'd be taxed on, meaning the actual bill is less than half, possibly quite a bit less), there is no way he can afford to take these two folks to court. Even if it's a large tax bill ($10-20-30k+) it's doubtful he can afford a lawsuit on top of that. If the Canadian revenue system is anything like the US's IRS, I sincerely doubt they're going to let him wait to pay that for the year or two (or more) it would take for this to resolve itself in the judicial system.

Even if he can afford everything, it still may not be worth it, even if his goal is just to prove a point/stick it to the dishonest cofounders.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#44

First: this situation sucks. :( Second: Yes, consult a tax attorney. Your own attorney, not theirs. Don't talk to the founders. You need to know where you're at first. Legal500 could be a decent starting point: http://www.legal500.com/c/canada/tax . It could very well be that they disregarded some security rule (i.e. notification of a capital increase or something like that) and can now be sued for your situation (in…

> Do you know if you can carry that loss forward in Canada, or do you need to use it in the same year?

"You can use a net capital loss to reduce your taxable capital gain in any of the three preceding years or in any future year."

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4037/t4037-e.html#P2313_1...

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#45

You shouldn't be in bad shape tax-wise. I don't know Canadian tax law - but in the US, you only get taxed when you sell the shares. Capital gains would not be recognized if you exercised the options and held onto the shares. Since you have been exercising your options - you are a shareholder in the company (or a member depending on the structure) and I would imagine that the company's operating agreement would requir…

+1 for talking to a Canadian tax lawyer. Also, you may want to ping company counsel about why he or she advised you the FMV was so low given that there was at least one investor. Maybe there's a really simple explanation that we're not aware of. The first investor may have invested using convertible debt rather than actual shares or options. Some founders (falsely, I think, but it's debatable) believe debt has no impact on the FMV of the company.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#46
post #37

You shouldn't be in bad shape tax-wise. I don't know Canadian tax law - but in the US, you only get taxed when you sell the shares. Capital gains would not be recognized if you exercised the options and held onto the shares. Since you have been exercising your options - you are a shareholder in the company (or a member depending on the structure) and I would imagine that the company's operating agreement would requir…

> in the US, you only get taxed when you sell the shares That's not quite correct with regards to US tax law at least. You can get taxed on the spread between the price you pay and the "fair market value" of the shares received. It's quite possible to get nailed with an insane tax bill in situations like this. You can end up in a situation where a company raises money at high valuations, and that spread is high, gene…

> leading to a horror story of being taxed on a percentage of the millions of dollars you supposedly got but never realized a dime from.

If the shares a complete loss and liquidated that way, you also have a capital loss for the millions of dollars which can be applied against income for tax purposes; this may end up somewhat less than offsetting the tax bill depending on your other income because of tax rates; you do end up paying (for employer-provided options) the payroll tax for the spread in any case, but then, the main part of that is limited by the annual cap on SS taxes, so for most of anything in the millions, you'll only be paying, on the payroll tax side, the Medicare portion.

But, in any case, that risk (plus the long term capital gains benefit) is why, if you have confidence in the company, you exercise options as early as possible; you only delay exercise if your confidence in other uses of the money vs. the company's stock is such that the risk that you'll exercise at a point where the tax burden is higher is a cost worth paying for the other use of the money.

(Note also that if you get equity directly instead of in the form of options, you pay taxes -- payroll and income -- on the fair market value at the time you get the equity, too; which is equivalent to an option with a $0 strike price. So, its not like options that you choose whether and when to exercise are any worse in that respect.)

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#47
Don't create any problems, specifically don't:

1. Stop going in to work (at least without a good reason such as health). 2. Confront anyone, at all. 3. Degrade your work (in as much as you can help yourself). 4. Talk about it, even here or elsewhere.

All of these things will likely be brought up if this goes to court. Don't damage your image.

Recognize you cannot trust your employer, so no point in confronting them or asking anything. Try to be all smiles and don't give anything away. You don't want them to start digging for information on their side.

Get a lawyer. I hope you can afford that. It will be hard to find one but persist.

Write down all details you can remember right away with dates and times, including overtime hours, special projects, extras you performed, reviews of your work and performance, comments that may matter, copies of your email, etc.

Good luck sir... Apologies this happened.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#48
There should be a provision somewhere in your operating agreement that tax liability on unrecognized income will be paid by the company -- look for that. Additionally, if it's an LLC (or even a partnership), you can look for something called Profits Interest http://www.gilaberttax.com/2014/01/14/profits-interest-vs-ca...

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#49
You are now faced with a number of decisions, namely: financial, emotional, moral and a business decision in general.

On the financial front, the decision is easy to remedy, if the other founders are willing. Ideal scenario is (a) Your 3% equity is fully-vested (b) 3% equity cannot be further diluted (c) you get retrospective compensation and (d) You get another good raise.

Morally, you have been wronged. It is tempting to take the high ground and take full offensive on principal alone (fight) or cut all ties (flight). But a moral victory won't last long when you need to find a new job, when you realise your stake is gone or if the company gets a big exit 2 years down.

Emotionally, you have every right to be upset and you'll need to find a way to deal with it. My own two cents is, "don't be a wuss" or anywhere near that frame of mind--you'll come out stronger and smarter, whatever happens.

In terms of making a value-judgement business decision, your best outcome is that things get reconciled and you put this all behind yourselves, they apologise, you build a rapport with them and have discussions on how this can be avoided in the future. You may need to highlight to them all that you have given to this company and you are willing to reconcile if they are. You should probably not go in to work for 3-4 days (I am presuming they know you are upset and why) and wait for them to contact you during this time. If they contact you and are showing any signed of reconciliation your conversation should be about (a) how they can make things right financially (all 4 points above) and (b) how to avoid this in the future so that the company can have a strong moral standing. During this time, you should prepare for the worst and talk to a lawyer with the correct expertise.

Re: Ask HN: My startup has concealed from me that it raised funding. What to do?

#50

You shouldn't be in bad shape tax-wise. I don't know Canadian tax law - but in the US, you only get taxed when you sell the shares. Capital gains would not be recognized if you exercised the options and held onto the shares. Since you have been exercising your options - you are a shareholder in the company (or a member depending on the structure) and I would imagine that the company's operating agreement would requir…

You are correct in that capital gains are only triggered at the time of sale. But that has little to do with the OP's problem which is the taxable benefit he gets when buying the shares.

As an employee, if I buy shares of a company at a discount then that discount is taxable income -- not capital gains. Buying the shares as they vest is a way to minimize this tax. The adjusted cost base of the stock is changed to become the fair market value (on which the tax has already been paid) so that when they're eventually sold, the difference between ACB and sale price is a capital gain which only pays half the tax.

In his case he could end up paying taxes at full marginal rate on an inflated amount, and if the company goes under, gets a capital loss that a) doesn't offset the taxes paid earlier and b) is not usable until he gets capital gains elsewhere.

The CRA lets you carry the taxable benefit forward until you sell the stocks. I'd suggest talking to an accountant, not a lawyer. Also see http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/...

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