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Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

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Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#211

Post by spacemanmatt »

zero_iq wrote: post #127
chc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt some people in the government have the capability to read people's text messages, but what you're suggesting is way past that. In the scenario you seem to be proposing, some random border agents are not only privy to top-secret NSA projects, but also have access to the data collected by said top-secret projects, and not only that, but they know everybody who's going to drive across the border on a given…

It doesn't mean anything of the sort. They just need a tip-off at the border. They don't need access to everything or even need to know how or why. They don't even need to know that it's a tip-off: a computer could just spit out "selected for random phone search" and maybe "suspected immigration fraud" when that person reaches border control. The border agent needn't know how or why the selection was made, nor have a…

I understood (arguably too much) The Cube as an allegory for the intelligence machine we have built/are building. That was a really hard realization.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0123755/

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#212

Post by spacemanmatt »

manicdee wrote: post #173
kazinator wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now consider the bitter irony of your "China too".

I am not sure I understand the irony of comparing China to an authoritarian state. ELI5?

The bitter irony is, when talking about authoritarian states, as Americans, we didn't used to reflexively include our own country.

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#213

Post by spacemanmatt »

cpncrunch wrote: post #122
Canada wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bullshit excuse border guards give to search electronic storage.

Why is it a "bullshit excuse" if they do actually manage to catch many people by searching phones?

Because it doesn't protect anyone.

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#214

Post by kazinator »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #212
manicdee wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure I understand the irony of comparing China to an authoritarian state. ELI5?

The bitter irony is, when talking about authoritarian states, as Americans, we didn't used to reflexively include our own country.

I think manicdee was pouring on added irony there.

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#215

Post by ajeet_dhaliwal »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #124

We should frame this story with what the actual end result of 'unlocking your phone' is when discussing it. The government routinely claims that it is no different than asking a traveler to open a physical briefcase. It is very different. If you're treating the phone as a 'good' as indicated in the quotes on this story, you can inspect my phone as a good. You can look at the phone. You can xray it. You can open up th…

Just harassment of a guy crossing the border. Any truly malicious person could just wipe and restore the phone/computer before and after the crossing either from the internet or locally so it is a waste of everyone's time and invasion of privacy.

As an aside I am not surprised this happened in Canada. I lived in Canada for a few years and then returned to the UK. It's not obvious to people who have not lived in both places, if you only visit you would not see this but Canada carefully cultivates an image of itself abroad and there is a stark difference in how authoritarian Canada is compared to the UK. I still know people who live there and the way the authorities at all levels treat even their own Canadian citizens would not be tolerated in the UK. Often times you cannot talk about this with Canadians as they will defend the way things are done and say the infringements on freedom are for a good reason. The citizenry is generally happily compliant and only outsiders who are used to more freedom notice it.

I think the compliance reasons are why they also put up with government restrictions on business in telecoms, air industry and even the dairy industry, look up the Canadian cheese smuggling arrests made a couple of years ago :-)

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#216

Post by pakled_engineer »

ajeet_dhaliwal wrote: post #215
JohnTHaller wrote: post #124

We should frame this story with what the actual end result of 'unlocking your phone' is when discussing it. The government routinely claims that it is no different than asking a traveler to open a physical briefcase. It is very different. If you're treating the phone as a 'good' as indicated in the quotes on this story, you can inspect my phone as a good. You can look at the phone. You can xray it. You can open up th…

Just harassment of a guy crossing the border. Any truly malicious person could just wipe and restore the phone/computer before and after the crossing either from the internet or locally so it is a waste of everyone's time and invasion of privacy. As an aside I am not surprised this happened in Canada. I lived in Canada for a few years and then returned to the UK. It's not obvious to people who have not lived in both…

Canadians also rejected the UK style totalitarian blanket surveillance and internet filters so not sure what 'freedoms' they are missing out on compared to the UK. All those same kinds of gov interference and regulations in airspace and dairy exist in the UK too, and every other country.

Border guards demanding your phone will likely happen in every country soon if not already. They take mine at US border and France.

Telecoms in Canada are just as corrupt as the US where they established monopolies long ago and now squat on spectrums to prevent any new competition. Huawei almost bought their way in to Canada then the Americans panicked and the deal was lost http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/canada-at-risk-from-chines...

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#217

Post by [deleted] »

mg1982 wrote: post #199
cpncrunch wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should perhaps research what that quote actually means. Hint: it means pretty much the opposite of what you think it means.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-... Interesting, thanks!

[deleted]

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#218

Post by cpncrunch »

Canada wrote: post #200
cpncrunch wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it is legal in Canada for border officers to inspect any goods being carried across the border -- not even suspicion of illegal activity is needed. See section 99(1)a of the customs act. I don't think this would allow them to search your phone. However that may be permitted if they have reasonable suspicion.

There's a very important difference between inspecting the goods and searching your person and papers. (These details matter. Note your comment about random searches at airports. Did you mean borders, or airports?) Try reading the entire Act. I did, and found some interesting stuff in there. Then go watch "Border Security". When a Canadian enters Canada it's acceptable for the government to say, "Show me all of your…

Actually, according to the Act they can do those searches (without a warrant) if they have reasonable suspicion. These aren't random searches -- they do them if they have a suspicion that the person is doing something illegal after talking to them.

I agree with your other points.

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#219

Post by DanBC »

wil421 wrote: post #83
DanBC wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like David Miranda? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwald...

Now that was a political maneuver. The article about the guy in Canada didn't say what the reason was for searching him. >"Officers are trained in examination, investigative and questioning techniques. To divulge our approach may render our techniques ineffective. Officers are trained to look for indicators of deception and use a risk management approach in determining which goods may warrant a closer look" This stat…

I wasn't clear.

David Miranda was carrying material which he must have known a government would show interest in.

They (unacceptable) stop and search found the data, and it was mostly unencrypted.

Re: Canadian Charged for Not Unlocking Smartphone at Canadian Border

#220

Post by ajeet_dhaliwal »

pakled_engineer wrote: post #216
ajeet_dhaliwal wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just harassment of a guy crossing the border. Any truly malicious person could just wipe and restore the phone/computer before and after the crossing either from the internet or locally so it is a waste of everyone's time and invasion of privacy. As an aside I am not surprised this happened in Canada. I lived in Canada for a few years and then returned to the UK. It's not obvious to people who have not lived in both…

Canadians also rejected the UK style totalitarian blanket surveillance and internet filters so not sure what 'freedoms' they are missing out on compared to the UK. All those same kinds of gov interference and regulations in airspace and dairy exist in the UK too, and every other country. Border guards demanding your phone will likely happen in every country soon if not already. They take mine at US border and France.…

Of course regulations exist in every country but it's the extent to which they limit competition resulting in poor service and high prices that affects Canada particularly badly. For example, tv/internet services Rogers/Bell provide are abysmal compared to the likes of Sky and they charge many times more too. Same with cellular plans. Really though we're getting side tracked, I do not think border guards demanding your phone will become commonplace in every country like you say because of both privacy concerns and because of the fact that people with malicious intent are not going to be caught out. This is not like a car where drugs may be hidden inside the trunk, you can completely wipe the phone and just get data back as soon as you exit the airport.
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