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Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

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Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#141
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the lack of gender diversity in tech an obvious problem? Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. You might say something about discrimination or sexism or some such thing, however I am highly skeptical of that. I have been a programmer for 10+ years and never saw any kind of negative discrimination against women. I have seen many examples of positive…

> Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. This is so far from the lived reality of women in tech or any of the data on hiring that you should be embarrassed to open your mouth. On HN most people get that before opining on the merits of functional programming, they should have tried it. Or at the very least spent a fair bit of time reading about what people…

I can come up with at least four reasons why people want to be lawyers in 2005 more than in 1965, without caring what is between their legs. These may or may not be their actual reasons, those are known only to the individual.

Honestly you don't deserve any reply though, after the way you treated OP. It is always the person who makes a claim who has to provide evidence for it - it is NOT the person who disagrees with the claim.

>Partly because so many of these people seem to think it's somebody else's job to argue them into an understanding. (Rather than, say, their responsibility to do a Google search and read for a whole hour.)

That is exactly what the rules for civilized debate proscribe. You have to argue your case, I don't have to.

1)Lawyers were (assumed) to be a safe career in 2005, in a world that did have that many safe jobs left. In 1965 there were a lot of other jobs that seemed safe, but didn't require you to work as hard to obtain them.

2)Lawyers have high earning potential - unlike most other jobs you can get with a college degree today. In 1965, this would have mattered less, because most jobs were relatively high paying (boom time does that).

3)In a world that changes rapidly, lawyering seems relatively safe, again the world changed less rapidly in 1965, with fewer obsolete jobs.

4)A safe, high paying job gives a high prestige. With fewer such types of jobs, more people will want to join those that exists.

So those would explain a higher amount of applicants to law schools, but not necessarily a higher amount of women, right? The thing is that law schools are limited in how many can be accepted and in how many new law schools can be created. You can't learn the law on your own in your bedroom and then get a job as a lawyer.

Is this what happened? Hell I don't know. I do know that it is at least possible it went this way and the explanation is as good as there were a large amount of sexism in law. After all if there were that much sexism in law in 1965, but not in 2005 why would there be so much sexism in computers today?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you have a policy of not having positions for Junior programmers. Fog Creek has the same hypocrisy as any other company that demands X years of experience from applicants but consider it somebody else's problem how they get that.

Worse: they demand that you can code, and don't consider it their problem to teach you how to do that. Anyway I thought it was well established that years of experience is a bullshit measurement anyway and you should just apply no matter what - worst thing happens, you end up getting hired.

The worst that happens is that you have a bunch of go-nowhere time-wasting interviews with people who can't properly evaluate you anyway.

That time is certainly valuable to me.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and forcing them to choose between having a family or a successful career This is not true. There are always trade-offs in life, even for men. Almost everything has an opportunity cost. You focus on your family the career suffers, focus on your career family suffers. The same is true of men except they don't have a biological clock. >Add on top of this any sort of general sexist behavior that is rampant in offices l…

The price of the privilege and prestige of being a member of the oppressive majority is eternal vigilance against overstepping the mark. Sure it's inconvenient, but politeness doesn't cost much effort. Eggshells is a good way of putting it. If you or anyone you see steps over the line, get an apology out there and discuss it and move on. Over time what constitutes a transgression seems to get more minor and trivial i…

>The price of the privilege and prestige of being a member of the oppressive majority

That sure sounds like most nerds I know - we are just so high on the social scale, even pop stars wish they were us.

And let me put it this way: I have no intention of walking on eggshells my entire career, never knowing when I hurt some delicate being. I don't for a second believe women are that delicate (there are far too many women in combat for that to be the case) but if they are as delicate as I read your comment to assume they are then they don't belong in computing - the compiler will not care how much it hurts your feelings.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#144

There is a war for Women Dev's in silicon valley. Google's HR head mentioned in a podcast that they are simply poaching female devs' from smaller players to get their diversity numbers up. This puts smaller players at a major disadvantage as VC's have started tying their funding with diversity numbers. There is no way a startup can compete directly with Goog for the female dev's who are in major short supply. This di…

If VC do anything but focus on getting investment in the best companies they are not fulfilling their fiduciary duty to their investors - even if that anything is saving starving children in Africa.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#145
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. This is so far from the lived reality of women in tech or any of the data on hiring that you should be embarrassed to open your mouth. On HN most people get that before opining on the merits of functional programming, they should have tried it. Or at the very least spent a fair bit of time reading about what people…

I can come up with at least four reasons why people want to be lawyers in 2005 more than in 1965, without caring what is between their legs. These may or may not be their actual reasons, those are known only to the individual. Honestly you don't deserve any reply though, after the way you treated OP. It is always the person who makes a claim who has to provide evidence for it - it is NOT the person who disagrees with…

> It is always the person who makes a claim who has to provide evidence for it - it is NOT the person who disagrees with the claim.

Yes, and the claims being made in this case are that "women can do whatever they want," and "women are not in tech because women don't want to be in tech." When women were legally second class citizens in the US as recently as 100 years/4 generations ago (i.e., suffrage rights), I think that the burden of proof has to fall on the people making the aforementioned claims. Where is the evidence that there is absolutely no friction for women to choose whatever field they want? Where is the evidence that social norms have completely leveled the playing field for women in terms of salary, career advancement, workplace harassment, etc.?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#146
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse: they demand that you can code, and don't consider it their problem to teach you how to do that. Anyway I thought it was well established that years of experience is a bullshit measurement anyway and you should just apply no matter what - worst thing happens, you end up getting hired.

The worst that happens is that you have a bunch of go-nowhere time-wasting interviews with people who can't properly evaluate you anyway. That time is certainly valuable to me.

That would be bad, but consider the time wasted if you ended up being hired by them.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#147
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " Women would highlight the cooperative nature of their work, while men would highlight that they did it all themselves. In my experience the latter is typically more honest, especially if you actually were working on a team or on a team-oriented college project. Did you mean to say the former was more honest, i.e. that saying “we did X” is more honest than “I did X?"

Yes. Edited. It depends on the context of course. If it was your project alone, then you did it. If others contributed non-trivial amounts, it was a team effort. I noted that the males tended to bury that, while the females tended to highlight it.

Well I think the more honest part is I myself worked on part X and we the team created product Y made out these multiple parts. How big of a part you had does matter.

For example, I made the iOS UI part of this text chat app, and my team members created data models and networking code that I used to make the UI part. Another team member made the android part using the cross platform code and a bunch of others made the server part and so on. Together we made a text chat app pair.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#148
post #130
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's why I switched to a PM role. I miss programming every day, but I hate the thought of doing another stupid technical interview.

As I often say, interviews based on the final year algorithms and datastructures exam are just a way to sneak ageism under the HR radar.

What final year algorithms and data structures exam are you referring to?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#149
post #113
post #10

Several people have already mentioned it here, but I'm also very pleased to read this line: "Hall asked a simple question: Why didn't Chipps, a brilliant engineer, ever apply to work at Fog Creek? Chipps said she didn't think she would make it through their rigorous testing process." I do think that the grueling and intimidating software interview process is a very serious problem in our field. This one sentence hint…

It's why I switched to a PM role. I miss programming every day, but I hate the thought of doing another stupid technical interview.

Not all companies require them if you have decent experience. My friend interviewed with several companies and flat out told them "I don't do code tests anymore, my experience should speak for itself." Obviously your milage will vary but he ended up in a good position at a large well known company.

Edit: Also if you have a connection into the company that can vouch for you, that will work as well. The best coding test that can be administered is "yeah I've worked with this guy before and he's a good developer."

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about developers with little experience, that come right out of school, or are applying for an internship position? Are you going to cut them out of the process? If so, are you okay with the fact that you'll often be missing out on getting an early lead on good junior developers? Good developers rarely kick around on the job market, and so it's often much more difficult to hire them when they've become more seni…

I'm not suggesting to do this exclusively. By all means, hire promising devs out of college using the method the GP prefers. I'm just suggesting that when an applicant like this exists before you, it makes more sense (assuming you're happy with their accomplishments) to confirm that these are indeed their accomplishments than to try to cram in some ad hoc heuristic for determining their range of skills in an hour or…

Well if you want to be an innovator in that space, then you can offer an interview process that is more friendly to them.

That means, no onsite interview processes that require taking vacation days to complete mostly. Or off hours interview processes.

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