EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#71

Post by detaro » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 7:11 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #59

Oletros wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is: > The Court points out, first of all, that a reduced rate of VAT can apply only to supplies of goods and services covered by Annex III to the VAT Directive. That annex refers in particular to the ‘supply of books ... on all physical means of support’. The Court concludes that the reduced rate of VAT is applicable to a transaction consisting of the supply of a book found on a physical medium. While ad…

What does this imply for downloadable music files, DRM and non-DRM? Neither is bundled with a computer or speakers for listening. For that matter, CDs are not bundled with CD players.

Are there any exemptions/lower rates for recorded music? From a quick google search I only found campaigns for it. If they exist(ed), downloaded music probably would fall under an analogous ruling. CDs are already physical mediums, so the "they are not bundled with players" is not important. eBooks on CDs should count as books if I understand it correctly.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#72

Post by andrewpi » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

gsnedders wrote: post #24

legulere wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland even has a 0% rate on books according to wikipedia. Lower than 5% tax rates seem to be pretty common: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax#...

The UK and Ireland have 0% VAT rates which are allowed as they were essentially grandfathered in. They aren't allowed to be expanded, however.

Why does the EU restrict members from lowering their VAT rates?

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#73

Post by anotherevan » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

That wouldn't bother me if the buttons on ebook selling sites didn't say "Buy Now" but said "Lease Now" or "Rent Now". But they don't.

https://twitter.com/evmcl/status/261661956681908225/photo/1

http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/

http://the-digital-reader.com/2012/10/23/kobo-says-youre-no-...

https://twitter.com/librarythingtim/status/14262859728958259...

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#74

Post by gsnedders » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 11:05 PM UTC

andrewpi wrote: post #72

gsnedders wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK and Ireland have 0% VAT rates which are allowed as they were essentially grandfathered in. They aren't allowed to be expanded, however.

Why does the EU restrict members from lowering their VAT rates?

To try and avoid overly large price differentials between member states.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#75

Post by Oletros » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 8:11 AM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #43

Oletros wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ruling doesn't say anything about rights, just the type of VAT to be applied

Yes. But ruling in the opposite direction could be used as precedent for vendors to loosen the DRM licence crap.

I can't understand how can it be done.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#76

Post by restalis » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 4:01 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #15

Makes sense for Amazon's store, where your books live in the cloud and you download some of them locally if you want. Doesn't make sense if you are provided an .epub file to download.

If you as publisher are claiming the ownership of some content (by enforcing various restrictions upon its users, through DRM or just by imposing an agreement on which you can hold later) even after it was downloaded, then you are very close to service definition. It's like the way the provided service reach the client may differ, but the basic value for which the interested client actually pays stay the same.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#77

Post by restalis » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #51

Between this, the constant nag screen on every European site I go to about "evil cookies," and their relentless attacks on Google and MS, which always results in a major payout to EU countries... what the hell are they thinking? We've lost more property rights again. I think the left leaning aspects of the EU are great for welfare benefits and social services, but the way its applied to business practices always seem…

"I own nothing and everything is a «service» somehow"

You got it right. You happen to be "serviced" with a knowledge that is owned by someone. For a while already you had to agree on all kinds of EULAs all the time, in which it was required for you to redefine (read "to limit") what you might thought is owned by you. Now you have it in more clear terms. The non-EU space will catch-up soon, don't worry.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#78

Post by pm24601 » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 2:09 AM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #64

pm24601 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Services are something you lease and use for a specific period and you never own. Yes. This is the reality of ebooks, downloaded music, and online games. Anything with a TOS attached to it is a service. We are a society of renters - never able to actual own something, but yet we pay the dollars and delude ourselves that we "own" DRMed ebooks and music.

I don't think of my ebooks as purchased knowledge. I think of them the same way I think of articles I read online. I just pay for these and they take somewhat longer to read. If they disappeared the second I finished the last page, 99% of the time I wouldn't miss them. If I could pay less money for a temporal copy, I would, but the marketplaces and UX for borrowed books are completely inferior to buying on Kindle, su…

You are think of just technical books. You are in the tech/SF bubble.

How many tech books make it to the NYTimes best seller list? Zero. Or any best seller list? Zero.

Most books sold are not "knowledge books" - they are fiction, cookbooks, self-help, etc. I have fiction books from years ago that I still re-read on occasion. Which is not possible with DRMed ebooks.