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EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

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Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#51

Post by drzaiusapelord »

Between this, the constant nag screen on every European site I go to about "evil cookies," and their relentless attacks on Google and MS, which always results in a major payout to EU countries... what the hell are they thinking?

We've lost more property rights again. I think the left leaning aspects of the EU are great for welfare benefits and social services, but the way its applied to business practices always seems more than a bit off. I fear this is the slipperly slope here where I own nothing and everything is a "service" somehow. The sad part is this was done, ostensibly, to avoid a VAT discount that paper books enjoy. EU corruption knows no bounds.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#52

Post by jeremysmyth »

digi_owl wrote: post #44
rikkus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is somewhat relevant, yes, but I don't think anyone here is/was laughing. We can see the oncoming juggernaut, but there's little we can do about it.

I think many more were laughing back when it was originally published. Note that it dates back to 1997.

Yes, but the cautionary tale is about content licencing and access control, and tangentially about copyright. It's a stretch to suggest it's a warning about the content of the article, which is about applying VAT differently to ebooks and physical books and nothing at all to do with access control. It's not even a warning about ebooks, which are implied but not mentioned in the cautionary tale.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#53

Post by drzaiusapelord »

pilif wrote: post #16

While short term, this sucks, I also think that in the way that eBooks work these days, this ruling is actually fair and it might well fix the situation for us consumers in the mid- to longer term. For all intents and purposes, eBooks are services. Between DRM, vendor lock-in and other consumer hostile "features" of ebooks, seeing them as services and consequently taxing them as services totally makes sense. As an eb…

Except this means there's ZERO chance of any sorts of rights granting later. DVD's have protection and what we would categorize as DRM today. Yet, in 2012 the U.S. Copyright Office ruled that we have a right to rip these things into other formats for certain uses. It has also made similar rulings regarding jailbreaking, which Apple asserted was a DMCA violation.

If everything is a service, then you own nothing, and pretty much have no historic property rights. Ever changing EULAs rule. How that's a good thing is beyond me. We should be attacking this ruling not praising it.

I bought a book. Its my property. Hopefully, this stupidity won't come to the states.

Lastly, if you think books sold in the EU without any DRM mechanisms will be seen as property.. well I've got a bridge to sell you. To EU bureaucrats, those are services too.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#54

Post by antientropic »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #51

Between this, the constant nag screen on every European site I go to about "evil cookies," and their relentless attacks on Google and MS, which always results in a major payout to EU countries... what the hell are they thinking? We've lost more property rights again. I think the left leaning aspects of the EU are great for welfare benefits and social services, but the way its applied to business practices always seem…

Why is this "corruption"? Are you alleging that EU officials are running off with the VAT money for private gain?

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#56

Post by pm24601 »

wahsd wrote: post #18
pilif wrote: post #16

While short term, this sucks, I also think that in the way that eBooks work these days, this ruling is actually fair and it might well fix the situation for us consumers in the mid- to longer term. For all intents and purposes, eBooks are services. Between DRM, vendor lock-in and other consumer hostile "features" of ebooks, seeing them as services and consequently taxing them as services totally makes sense. As an eb…

I don't think you appreciate the impact. Services are something you lease and use for a specific period and you never own. This seems at least to be an affirmation that ebooks cannot ever be owned by anyone but the publisher and there will now need to be legal mechanisms for revocation of ebooks from your device and reporting and even penalizing and prosecution of anyone who prevents revocation or even simply does no…

> Services are something you lease and use for a specific period and you never own.

Yes. This is the reality of ebooks, downloaded music, and online games.

Anything with a TOS attached to it is a service. We are a society of renters - never able to actual own something, but yet we pay the dollars and delude ourselves that we "own" DRMed ebooks and music.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#57

Post by walterbell »

nightski wrote: post #41
scotu wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you think non-DRM'd ebooks will be seen as goods? Being digital, I can lend it or resell it but I would still own a copy, so how can that be a good?

Wouldn't the "good" be the DRM free license and not the digital copy of the book itself? i.e. if you resell your license you would no longer have it.

Yes, squatting on a piece of land does not transfer title, which is a legal construct.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#58

Post by drzaiusapelord »

antientropic wrote: post #54
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #51

Between this, the constant nag screen on every European site I go to about "evil cookies," and their relentless attacks on Google and MS, which always results in a major payout to EU countries... what the hell are they thinking? We've lost more property rights again. I think the left leaning aspects of the EU are great for welfare benefits and social services, but the way its applied to business practices always seem…

Why is this "corruption"? Are you alleging that EU officials are running off with the VAT money for private gain?

My suggestion is that their ability to tax EU buyers is limited via paper book exception. Recategorizing them as digital products means more taxation without any ugly legislation issues that would come up in a traditional attempt to raise taxes.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#59

Post by walterbell »

Oletros wrote: post #37
detaro wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely clear if this decision was about all e-books or only those that are provided as services (the article cites Amazon, which I would classify as a service, and it is not entirely clear if a download of an unrestricted file is covered or not)

The argument is: > The Court points out, first of all, that a reduced rate of VAT can apply only to supplies of goods and services covered by Annex III to the VAT Directive. That annex refers in particular to the ‘supply of books ... on all physical means of support’. The Court concludes that the reduced rate of VAT is applicable to a transaction consisting of the supply of a book found on a physical medium. While ad…

What does this imply for downloadable music files, DRM and non-DRM? Neither is bundled with a computer or speakers for listening. For that matter, CDs are not bundled with CD players.

Re: EU Court Rules E-Books Are Services, Not Goods

#60

Post by icebraining »

walterbell wrote: post #57
nightski wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the "good" be the DRM free license and not the digital copy of the book itself? i.e. if you resell your license you would no longer have it.

Yes, squatting on a piece of land does not transfer title, which is a legal construct.

Well, except for adverse possession.
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