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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#451

Post by byuu »

eropple wrote: post #372
cookiecaper wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works up until the point when some belief you expressed years ago becomes outmoded. Look at Brendan Eich; a political donation from 7 years prior, of which he made no public note and was only attached to him because of legal reporting requirements, was trudged up and used against him. I know this isn't an example of an online anonymity issue, but it shows the very dark path of intolerance we're going down, and t…

I have real trouble squaring "public mores change" and "that dude donated money to a thing that is dedicated exclusively to hurting people." Sure, that thing he likes that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people is no longer in vogue. Does that make his decision to help a thing that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people less bad because more other people were okay with it then than are now? Eich backed some…

Well said, thank you.

I'm always disappointed when my colleagues don't understand that I'm not against Eich for his opinions. This isn't a free speech issue. I'm against him for donating money for the express purpose of harming other people [1]. And he (and others) did, for five full years. And popular opinion certainly doesn't justify it.

It pains me just as much that the Mozilla board chose to promote him to CEO, knowing his past already.

[1] just like corporations aren't people, money isn't speech. Ridiculous rulings can change the laws, but they can't alter self-evident truths. We have a warped Supreme Court at the moment that also thinks racism is over, and that 170-year (or ones beyond the heat death of the universe) copyright terms are okay because the constitution only bars infinite terms.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#452

Post by FireBeyond »

near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

Right, the whole "don't make jokes like that" thing was eyebrow raising. The article hints, but the interviewer never explored the fact that her Twitter feed had regular sexual and innuendo-laden jokes about (among other things) suggesting someone stuff a rolled up sock into their underwear for a trip through airport security. I recall at the time she spent quite a lot of words mealy-mouthy defending how "different" that was, because it was a conversation between friends (as opposed to the conversation between friends at the conference), etc.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#453

Post by zamalek »

ryan-c wrote: post #414
zamalek wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet Turning around and asking them to stop would have been enough. If they didn't (by shrugging her off, or laughing at her request, or whatever) that would have been grounds to publicly shame them. It doesn't matter who got off easier or worse. There could be a million reasons why Adria didn't get another job: the male-dominated industry is one. Here's a personal challenge, whic…

"registered sex offender" is pretty meaningless without context - in some states getting caught peeing in a bush after a night of drinking in college can result in that label.

I was going for the "worst" kind. Not everyone might agree with me, but I honestly don't see a severe offender as an impediment to being able to get a project done and would happily hire one.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#454

Post by mcphage »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #379
pcthrowaway wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I'm a little bit skeptical of the honesty of the interviewer. Even if she said the things in this article, it's possible many of those statements were taken out of context. Someone here linked to this blog post [1] from someone apparently close to Richards, where the writer is classified as being manipulative and duplicitous in order to obtain 'the first interview' with Adria Richards. [1] http://www.sh…

Hm, you/they think the interviewer intentionally made Richards look as bad as they could, or something? I don't really know. The article you link to is worth reading -- it's critiquing a different article by Ronson in the NYTimes Magazine, not the OP by the the same author in Esquire. Obviously he used the same research for both though, and the critique might apply to both. The NYTimes one indeed reduced Richards to…

> The article you link to is worth reading -- it's critiquing a different article by Ronson in the NYTimes Magazine, not the OP by the the same author in Esquire. Obviously he used the same research for both though, and the critique might apply to both.

Both articles are adapted from a book he's writing called "So You've Been Publicly Shamed"

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#455

Post by FireBeyond »

hderms wrote: post #440
mercurial wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet, and Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it. But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it. She used her status and influence in an irresponsible way, and she consistently avoids any responsibility into what happens, while…

She probably didn't get another job because she's in the field of 'developer evangelism' and publicly skewered a developer without giving appropriate thought to the consequences of her actions. I think that might be an indication to employers that she might not be an appropriate candidate for the position of 'developer evangelist' unless they're willing to take on the risk associated for the benefit provided.

Right, I also seem to recall (and am absolutely ready to be corrected) that she name dropped her employer in it too, a la "I and we will make sure we never use any product produced by you or your employer", and that a large part of the firing was not a blackmail capitulation but "Adria has no authority to speak on behalf of the company".

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#456

Post by FireBeyond »

byuu wrote: post #135
interpol_p wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

"Frankly, I'm really sick and tired of the pervasive image in America that all men are rapists and child molesters. You talk to a woman on an elevator, or you accidentally make eye contact with a child that isn't yours for a brief second, and everyone assumes you're a sexual predator because penis. Sure, I'll accept that men are more likely to be. But we're talking about 0.000011% of women versus 0.000018% of men here."

Yes. In my "other life" I work in fire and EMS, and in uniform regularly have parents stop us and point us out to their kids - "If you're ever hurt or in trouble, you can ALWAYS go to these people, they're safe.", or the look of absolute trust when someone thrusts their sick child at you, hoping for you to make it better. And that, somewhat unsurprisingly, sometimes include seeing that child in undress.

Take off my uniform.

My partner spent several years in childcare, both at centers and as a nanny. We're out in public and she sees a crying child? She goes to it, talks to it, hugs it perhaps, reassures.

Me? Not a chance. For better or worse, societal conditioning is that that is something I as a male /do/ /not/ /do/. Because it's nefarious that I'd even want to.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#457

Post by FireBeyond »

ceejayoz wrote: post #281
adl wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (o…

Twitter isn't a professional setting like a conference session, and anyone joining in a game of CAH is deliberately opting-in to a situation where offensively funny combinations are the entire point of the game.

Yes, they are. Where were they playing CAH? Oh, at "a professional setting like a conference" (not in a session, certainly).

Did they seek the approval of others around who weren't playing, and ensured that they felt emotionally safe?

I somehow doubt it.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#458

Post by mcphage »

Tomte wrote: post #437
TuringTest wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought so :-) But young people could see your post and take it at face value, thinking that such harassment is justified.

I wish we could all just leave off those "of course, I'm not condoning the threats" statements and also the "you didn't include such a statement, would you like to add it?". Not so much because it adds unnecessary words and gets tedious after reading slight variations of it for the umpteenth time. But because we as a community, no matter how much we quarrel and bicker about everything, wouldn't ever endorse such hara…

> I wish we could all just leave off those "of course, I'm not condoning the threats" statements and also the "you didn't include such a statement, would you like to add it?".

> But maybe you all are right, and it is needed. I'd just like to think it isn't.

I think it still is—the harassment, after all, did occur. And while it would be nice to think that none of her harassers are active on HN, I really don't believe that's the case.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#459

Post by FireBeyond »

Torgo wrote: post #441
cyxxon wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks. That does really not fit well with playing CAH...

I was wrong about PyCon, but I stand by my position that these events aren't actually treated as purely "professional" even if there are minimum standards of behavior. People wouldn't go if they were. But she wasn't playing Cards Against Humanity _at_ PyCon. Arguably because she represented Sendgrid, she should have been more professional on her Twitter, though.

"But she wasn't playing Cards Against Humanity _at_ PyCon."

Uhh... scroll up:

https://instagram.com/p/W_A1xlAacg/

Caption on that picture, by @adriarichards, "Playing, Cards Against Humanity, #pycon" (And that picture is a hallway at the venue).

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