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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#431

Post by iolothebard »

rors wrote: post #279
BasDirks wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a social faux-pas" .. "Have any white men on this site ever been on the receiving end of a campaign of intimidation and fear?" Did you hear what happened to this "Hank" guy when he made a joke once, a "social faux-pas"? I heard there was an article about him on HN recently.

Andrea was sent pictures of her head superimposed on porn actors. She was sent rape and death threats. Was Hank sent death threats? To be clear, my definition of 'a campaign of intimidation and fear' are threats to your personal safety and your life.

I think what happens in life is this.

You get fucked over constantly. This eventually builds up. When you lose your livelihood through no fault of your own but have no power to react.

Then you see it happen to someone else, over of all fucking things a dongle joke.

You unleash that fury onto someone that is deserving of ridicule, but not the extent to which some people take it.

My philosophy has become avoid everyone always and forever, it never works out in your favor. I'm great at establishing a rapport and being friendly with people, you just have to always keep it superficial except with your close friends and family.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#432

Post by cyxxon »

interpol_p wrote: post #168
byuu wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impos…

> I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage.

Isn't that the definition of empathy? She sees Hank not as a person, but just as a part of a system, never thinks of the consequences her actions have on him, never even considers that he is going through some rough times, and that he (as a person, a human being) sometimes makes a mistake and then apologizes...

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#433

Post by xtrumanx »

darkerside wrote: post #167
amalag wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer evangelist you would think she could have handled it better.

Great point. She was speaking in her capacity as a SendGrid spokesperson. Putting that on a private Twitter account totally unaffiliated with SendGrid might not have had the same outcome.

I don't think that would have helped as I'm pretty sure she tweeted something to the effect of "SendGrid's got my back" shortly before getting fired.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#434

Post by joshstrange »

eropple wrote: post #372
cookiecaper wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works up until the point when some belief you expressed years ago becomes outmoded. Look at Brendan Eich; a political donation from 7 years prior, of which he made no public note and was only attached to him because of legal reporting requirements, was trudged up and used against him. I know this isn't an example of an online anonymity issue, but it shows the very dark path of intolerance we're going down, and t…

I have real trouble squaring "public mores change" and "that dude donated money to a thing that is dedicated exclusively to hurting people." Sure, that thing he likes that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people is no longer in vogue. Does that make his decision to help a thing that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people less bad because more other people were okay with it then than are now? Eich backed some…

> Now here's the real thing: not only did Eich back those reprehensible politics, he by all indications continues to do so.

I feel like a large number of people didn't seem to grasp this, I agree with everything you posted here and said similar things when that whole ordeal happened.

> My politics have wildly shifted and I am personally embarrassed by some of the idiotic beliefs I once held

I too have experienced this and I too will not try to hide or whitewash my history. I was who I was then, for better or for worse, and that doesn't mean I'm the same way now. In fact I like to try to correct my previous self as publicly or more so than the original statement so it's easy to see that that opinion was old and has changed since if stumbled across.

> "you know, I believed that then, I've grown as a person, and because of X and Y I no longer believe it"

I would have been the first to defend him if he had done this and would have been outraged if the same outcome had happened under these new circumstances. He didn't, and so I'm not.

> There is a lesson of the Internet to be learned here, though: you will be viewed through the lens of history and you will probably be viewed through it during your lifetime.

Exactly, I have full confidence that comments I've made under usernames I used prior to using my real name will one day be linked to my current identity. So much that I've seriously considered linking them myself now and disputing any views expressed that I may no longer hold in a couple of blog posts. It's why I switched to my real name, it's a constant reminder that my name is attached to everything I write even if I don't use my real name.

>You don't have to be uncontroversial. But you do have to be just, be generous, and be good in your dealings. Or you will be judged harshly, and I'm honestly pretty okay with that.

Agreed.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#435

Post by jellicle »

mkr-hn wrote: post #228

This debacle was a helpful reminder that we all do things that, out of context, can look really awful, and should be mindful of this when calling people out publicly. Neither of them deserved to be fired or harassed over this. Personally, I have trouble seeing how a lewd joke about one man forking another man's repo (and following up with dongle jokes) involves or threatens women in any way, but I wasn't there. I alm…

But... but... you're blaming her for the harassment she's facing.

(Actually, "Hank" didn't face any harassment. We don't even know his name.)

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#436

Post by cyxxon »

DanBC wrote: post #421
Torgo wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people disagree with me frequently on this, but most conferences aren't professional settings either. You register and you go, that's the criteria. And people do a lot of "unprofessional" things at and around them.

Code of conduct for 2013 US Pycon https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ > All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks. > Be kind to others. Do not insult or put down other attendees. Behave professionally. Remember that harassment and sexist, racis…

> All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks.

That does really not fit well with playing CAH...

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#437

Post by Tomte »

TuringTest wrote: post #398
BSousa wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I meant in relation to being fired, not the harassment. My apologies for not making that more specific (I've edited the post)

I thought so :-) But young people could see your post and take it at face value, thinking that such harassment is justified.

I wish we could all just leave off those "of course, I'm not condoning the threats" statements and also the "you didn't include such a statement, would you like to add it?".

Not so much because it adds unnecessary words and gets tedious after reading slight variations of it for the umpteenth time.

But because we as a community, no matter how much we quarrel and bicker about everything, wouldn't ever endorse such harassment.

Not a single one of us. And no reader, inside or outside the community, could ever be mistaken and think a single HN commenter would.

But maybe you all are right, and it is needed. I'd just like to think it isn't.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#438

Post by huu »

worklogin wrote: post #385
interpol_p wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impos…

Once she said she had no regret for him getting fired, and that it was ok because he was a white male, any sympathy that could have been had was gone. She's like the white man who shot the black kids in Florida because he was threatened by their loud music.

I don't think your analogy applies here. I'd liken the situation more to stealing a CD from a record store. The CD's are easily replaced, but you were caught and now you're serving life in prison.

Even though we know that stealing is wrong, would you feel bad for the record store?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#440

Post by hderms »

mercurial wrote: post #131
interpol_p wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet, and Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it. But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it. She used her status and influence in an irresponsible way, and she consistently avoids any responsibility into what happens, while…

She probably didn't get another job because she's in the field of 'developer evangelism' and publicly skewered a developer without giving appropriate thought to the consequences of her actions. I think that might be an indication to employers that she might not be an appropriate candidate for the position of 'developer evangelist' unless they're willing to take on the risk associated for the benefit provided.
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