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Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

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Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#11
post #7

I agree that lack of gender diversity in tech is an obvious problem, and I laud Fog Creek for trying to address this problem. However, I'd like to strongly emphasis the fact that one of the main problems Fog Creek identified as hindering the most talented female developers from applying to Fog Creek, is also a huge problem that prevents many of the most talented male developers from applying to Fog Creek. Ironically,…

I think the Dunning-Kruger thing is a nice idea but it's immediately ruined once you become aware of it, like a Heisenberg uncertainty sort of thing.

I used to think I was crap, but Dunning-Kruger, so I must be great.

I used to think I was great, but Dunning-Kruger, so I must be crap.

It just seems a bit trite to base any real world conclusions or behaviour off of.

I agree that the interview process is broken. The reason I wouldn't apply to Google/Facebook/Fog Creek is personal and nothing to do with their interview process.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#12
post #7

I agree that lack of gender diversity in tech is an obvious problem, and I laud Fog Creek for trying to address this problem. However, I'd like to strongly emphasis the fact that one of the main problems Fog Creek identified as hindering the most talented female developers from applying to Fog Creek, is also a huge problem that prevents many of the most talented male developers from applying to Fog Creek. Ironically,…

You might be right on point 1, but it doesn't offer an alternative. If you state that you take mediocre developers, better developers won't want to work there either.

Point 2 is also sort of moot; if people can make it on their own in the contract world, then it doesn't really matter what hyperbolized interview process (5-days? What?) stands between them and employment. I'm in the same boat, I work contract now and don't want to go back. The interview process has nothing to do with it.

I think you're far from concluding that the process is broken, though. Some companies may want to hire top CS grads straight out of college. In fact, a small company could probably fill their ranks through that alone.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#13
post #10

Several people have already mentioned it here, but I'm also very pleased to read this line: "Hall asked a simple question: Why didn't Chipps, a brilliant engineer, ever apply to work at Fog Creek? Chipps said she didn't think she would make it through their rigorous testing process." I do think that the grueling and intimidating software interview process is a very serious problem in our field. This one sentence hint…

It's tough though, because when you are a small company that expects developers to jump in and be productive, you do need some kind of process. That process can be referral based, in which case testing isn't as necessary because you can rely on past shared experience, but that obviously limits your talent pool.

When you are interacting with an unknown (or a less known) person, you have to have some kind of vetting process. And with a small company culture, typically false negatives are far less harmful than false positives.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#14
As a younger male about to finish his software engineering degree and start applying I agree with these points. I am intimidated at the rigorous testing some companies use. I don't have the confidence that others might have in there ability.

I am ultimately looking for a mentoring workplace ( just to start) where I can build my confidence quickly and start producing for the company.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#15
post #7

I agree that lack of gender diversity in tech is an obvious problem, and I laud Fog Creek for trying to address this problem. However, I'd like to strongly emphasis the fact that one of the main problems Fog Creek identified as hindering the most talented female developers from applying to Fog Creek, is also a huge problem that prevents many of the most talented male developers from applying to Fog Creek. Ironically,…

It's a provocative thesis that Fog Creek hires mediocre developers. The evidence of their products suggests otherwise.

Of course as Atwood's friend Scott says, "We're all amateurs," so perhaps Fog Creek just hires the less mediocre on an absolute rather than relative scale.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#16
post #7

I agree that lack of gender diversity in tech is an obvious problem, and I laud Fog Creek for trying to address this problem. However, I'd like to strongly emphasis the fact that one of the main problems Fog Creek identified as hindering the most talented female developers from applying to Fog Creek, is also a huge problem that prevents many of the most talented male developers from applying to Fog Creek. Ironically,…

Why is the lack of gender diversity in tech an obvious problem? Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. You might say something about discrimination or sexism or some such thing, however I am highly skeptical of that. I have been a programmer for 10+ years and never saw any kind of negative discrimination against women. I have seen many examples of positive…

Why don't they want to be there though?

There's gender imbalances in lots of places now between executives, teachers, prison, the military, some of those are positive places to have a gender balance in.

I've seen lots of discrimination against females in the places I have worked, behind their back for the most part. I have also seen examples of positive discrimination in their favour, but not as much.

Personally, I think it's a manufacturing line of institutions that lead to a hireable tech worker - and if you go back each step along the assembly line, the female involvement is higher percentage wise.

So I think the lower representation is a product of women opting out of maths and science based subjects at an early stage, and later choosing the medical profession over engineering.

It would be interesting to get some statistics over the span of a career, do a higher percentage of women change career away from tech once they start?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#18
post #10

Several people have already mentioned it here, but I'm also very pleased to read this line: "Hall asked a simple question: Why didn't Chipps, a brilliant engineer, ever apply to work at Fog Creek? Chipps said she didn't think she would make it through their rigorous testing process." I do think that the grueling and intimidating software interview process is a very serious problem in our field. This one sentence hint…

"I do think that the grueling and intimidating software interview process is a very serious problem in our field."

I'd have to agree. The interview process is irreducibly stressful, but that doesn't mean we have to go out of our way to make it worse. It isn't even good for hiring most men either, after all! It's just a bad idea.

I've personally had fairly good success hiring people who happen to be women, and I suspect a good part of that is that my interview attitude is that I'm there to find out what you can do, not to find out what you can't, which seems to be the unexamined default of a lot of interviewers. You don't start at "perfect" and get marks off for failure... you start at essentially zero and work your way up. "Starting at zero" may sound superficially harsh when I put it into English, but in practice this produces a much friendlier interview environment, I think, because we're discovering positive aspects instead of negative ones.

(Another reason to prefer this is that in practice this also helps avoid the problem of the senior candidate being thrown softballs, or the junior candidate being asked to design a cloud infrastructure. It really doesn't take that long for me to key in on where your most likely "knowledge frontier" is and probe for details there. As opposed to just going through a rote set of questions looking for demerits. It is a harder style of interviewing, though, precisely because you can't just go through a rote set of questions... even the standard question set I use has a lot of ways of approaching them and several "levels of detail" I can get into depending on experience and skill level.)

The end result is still, frankly, stressful. It's a big deal, and the interviewee would have to be outright irrational to forget that. But it helps if you as an interviewer remember that, too, and have some compassion.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#19
post #10

Several people have already mentioned it here, but I'm also very pleased to read this line: "Hall asked a simple question: Why didn't Chipps, a brilliant engineer, ever apply to work at Fog Creek? Chipps said she didn't think she would make it through their rigorous testing process." I do think that the grueling and intimidating software interview process is a very serious problem in our field. This one sentence hint…

I agree.

Personally, I can handle all sorts of adversarial situations, but I've never done well with "rigorous" interviews. I think I was raised to be humble and that's built into my DNA, but the business world embraces overpromise/underdeliver.

At the same time, I've successfully managed large teams, budgets, interfaced with super-high level people and negotiated hard-nosed deals. I gotten myself into these roles by other means -- 90% of interviews that I have done have been formalities.

IMO, that's a symptom of a bigger problem, as what you do has more to do with where you are and who you know than any other factor.

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