It is utterly mind-boggling that someone can feel threatened by a comment about big dongles or forking someone's repo. I'm sorry, but at this point, you need to seek professional help, and you are trivializing the threats that many women feel every single day by creating threats and persecution where there is none.
Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
351–360 of 528 posts
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#352I remember when this story happened and after reading it all again, I still think that what makes it so terrible is the fact both sides were fired. One of them because he was behaving immaturely at a conference and another because her employer was getting ddosed. Is it just me or are those both terrible overreactions from the companies' sides? The whole sexism discussion is perfectly valid and very important, we need…
At the risk of sounding insensitive, in what freezing hell is a remark about forking a guy's repo or something sexist? Rather unprofessional, yeah, maybe -- which is why it wasn't spoken aloud on stage, but whispered between two colleagues. But sexist? Can someone draw me a diagram about how that conveys any form of discrimination, prejudice, violence, dislike or oppression of women? This sounds like completely selfi…
Your post makes me severely question your grasp of the legal system in the United States. Racism and sexism are not illegal, though they are bullshit and wrong. Discrimination and undue preference are illegal in housing and employment contexts. They are not illegal in social contexts, and is regularly wielded against women and minorities to their (and, by extension, society's) detriment.
Sexualized jokes like this--and mind you, this isn't defending or excusing Richards's actions, which I find unconscionable--do enforce stereotypes around who's allowed to participate. "Overwhelmingly masculine culture," for lack of a better phrase, encapsulates that sort of behavior, and it's historically and to this day exclusive of women. You are asking for diagrams, you are asking for logic, about something that's got hundreds, if not thousands, of years of baggage. This isn't something you can feed into your Turing machine. When people say you're hurting them, you need to accept that rather than trying to reason yourself into "well, I'm really not." That's just part of being a decent human.
None of that is to say this should have been a huge thing--of course Hank shouldn't have been fired, and had his employers acted like adults I don't think this would have spiraled as it did. But Hank's still wrong. That doesn't make him a bad person, and I think, from reading this and some other stuff, that he understands his error in this thing. I'm wrong all the fucking time about this stuff. But I suck it up, I make good on my mistakes, and I do better next time.
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Everybody makes bad call. The difference is in how you handle your bad decisions, and what lessons you draw. Adria does not even begin to recognize that she acted wrongly towards these two guys, and generally gave a bad name to feminists. Has she ever claimed to be a feminist?
She claimed at the time that she tweeted to defend women in tech (which is a perfectly fine cause to defend).
That might make her a feminist by definition, but it's far away from some of the more visible factions of feminism. I wouldn't assume she identifies as a feminist just because she agrees with some of the core tenets.
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
If your mental/emotional state is at odds with the reality of your circumstances, therapy is in order, not scolding the hapless bystanders you blame for your delusions.
Are you suggesting she is delusional because she felt something that you cannot imagine feeling? When a woman in our field says " I felt this way " we say " No no, she's delusional, therapy is in order. " Instead of asking why and trying to understand what led to these feelings. This sort of behaviour doesn't help us become more inclusive.
I have no interest in being a part of any group that coddles and enables paranoia.
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#355This gives feminism a bad image.
And "Hitler was an atheist!" This has little to do with feminism and much to do with one person who could easily score a narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis. The inability to separate this individual with feminism is the fault of the interpreter. Regardless, I think that you are unfortunately correct that this event reinforced preexisting, incorrect notions of feminism in the aforementioned interpreter.
Judging from my personal viewpoints and experiences (aka the usual YMMV), from those few feminists I know, most fall +- into this category. Much less narcisstic/sociopatic, but same breed. What I mean by this - looking very hard for any case of man/woman disparity in our society, ignoring that some professions are just better for men (and some for women, and others are +-equal). What is interesting is their lack of objectiveness - they will discuss and shame for long time situation in their current/previous work, how horrible is the situation in their western country, yet they are almost oblivious to horrible treatment of women that happens region-wide half around the globe (ie "yeah it's horrible how women can't drive in saudi arabia, BUT! that last job i had, one guy told me I women are happier when they bring up kids back home and not doing career! How horrible is that! How did he dare!" - roughly real conversations I had :))
Or - all is bad because of men. But rather don't look at the mess in their lives.
I wish I finally meet some easy-to-communicate feminist girl, who is actually trying to change things in this world for women for better. I really wish so... but right now they are just a joke, to me & to my girlfriend.
Maybe best feminist women are those who don't run around shouting how much feminist they are, but instead they let results of their efforts speak for themselves. Did I tell you I really wish to meet such a person?
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
If your mental/emotional state is at odds with the reality of your circumstances, therapy is in order, not scolding the hapless bystanders you blame for your delusions.
Are you suggesting she is delusional because she felt something that you cannot imagine feeling? When a woman in our field says " I felt this way " we say " No no, she's delusional, therapy is in order. " Instead of asking why and trying to understand what led to these feelings. This sort of behaviour doesn't help us become more inclusive.
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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#357The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…
I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…
I don't agree with framing this as men vs women. And your post does it quite a bit.
> But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority
No. It is a programming conference. It is not a forced place to be, it is not torture, it a programming conference. Framing this as some kind of a jungle full of dangers, rapists and murders lurking behind their little laptops, wearing geeky t-shirts is a bit crazy.
There are real inappropriate comments, sexual innuendos, harassment, both in the workplace and during conferences but this wasn't it.
By blowing this up she is fighting against her own cause because it diminishes the importance and impact of those things. It brings them down to the level of "oh crazy irrationality, and overreacting" which is the typical excuse for dismissing them. Next time someone is really harassed, the offender can just say "Oh she is pulling an Aria on me" or something to that effect.
> — that she should not have to apologise for it.
Yes she should have. Everyone expected Hank to apologize And he did. Not expecting her to apologies further excusing her lack of empathy is discriminatory and sexist.
> And you have to wonder — did Hank get another job so fast because our field is dominated by men, and they are likely to feel for him and have the same initial reactions as we do when reading this article?
I don't wonder. I am quite sure he got a job because others realized he was a decent person, who said a stupid thing, made a mistake, apologized for it. A person you want working for you. It wasn't because he had a penis or because he was white.
Adria on the other hand showed her character and her character is not one I would want on my team. She is manipulative, lacks empathy, likes controversy, and promotes discrimination and sexism.
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is threatening about that joke?
Nothing. Maybe she was offended, I can't speak for her, however there's no such thing as a right not to be offended. Her racist sanctimonious posturing is disgusting. We have real issues of race and gender in the US, but this? This woman is why guys like me tend to simply not care that much about these issues. There are too many people who make it their mission to be offended just so they can get back at the 'man.' A…
Do we really need to judge the quality of her code in order to evaluate her point of view? One doesn't have to agree with how she continues to handle things, or take offense at the joke oneself, in order to perceive that another might have different thoughts about it. I think that the whole ordeal is/was overblown, but to come away from this article merely thinking that she's racist and sanctimonious (I'll agree a bit with the latter) is missing an opportunity for critical self-evaluation. Getting riled up at her reaction ("bet money", "pain in the ass") does nothing to deepen mutual understanding in the workplace. Seeking out and lambasting those that make it their mission to get back at the "man" is an "eye for and eye" -- I think we've come a bit further than that in 4000 years.
Also, for one that says "I can't speak for her" and "I don't know her," you seem quite willing to go all out to discredit her as being the stereotypical irrational woman. [1] She herself isn't necessarily present in the discussion. What is the point in eviscerating her as you've done? Playing armchair psychologist does nothing to make workplace interactions better. This whole situation seems like a great place, at the unfortunate expense of Hank and Adria, for the tech industry to meet in the middle between "making dongle jokes is cool, get over it" and "the white-male hegemony needs to be dismantled."
[1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
The many people who called for Hank to be fired and sent intimidation and threats and participated in the DDOS are all worse than both Hank and Adria. Hank's joke was perhaps inappropriate (it's impossible for those of us that were not there to even apply our own personal standards, volume, tone, etc. all factor into such things, and they are impossible to describe objectively). Adria's response is similarly hard to…
HN is extremely supportive of the mob justice meted out on uppity black women, and there are numerous supportive comments in this story thread to that effect. Most HN readers don't even see a problem there, much less one that needs any attention or remedy. Sure, any rational examination of the situation would suggest that Adria's "offense" (saying something she didn't like was "not cool" on her personal Twitter accou…
> but the more important thing to HN is that she was a black woman challenging a white man, and that simply cannot be allowed to stand.
Oh get off the racism/sexism card already.
If Hank were the black woman and Adria were the white male, then I swear on my honor I would feel exactly the same way toward both parties here.
Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
This article is the worst kind of inflammatory journalism. I would never attempt to deny that there is a systemic patriarchy in place, or that white privilege exists, but tying every perceived injustice in the world to these braoder issues undermines the real issues that affect millions of people on a daily basis. As has been pointed out here by many other commentors, the behaviour of Hank and his friend was clearly…
> I would never attempt to deny that there is a systemic patriarchy in place I would. There are a couple of counter-arguments. One, claiming that there is a "patriarchy" sounds a whole lot like a conspiracy theory. Replace "patriarchy" with "zionism" in typical statements to see what I mean. This makes me very wary of any hand-waving claims of "patriarchy". The second is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491…
> claiming that there is a "patriarchy" sounds a whole lot like a conspiracy theory. Replace "patriarchy" with "zionism" in typical statements to see what I mean.
That's a false analogy. Zionism and similar conspiracy theories are predicated upon the notion that there organizations and people consciously manipulating things behind the scenes.
When most people discuss the patriarchy, they're not referring to conscious, willful agents. They're talking about systemic sexism.