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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#341

Post by [deleted] »

interpol_p wrote: post #274
mercurial wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would consider shaming them to be "fight," in this instance. More like shooting someone in the back. > I also feel really bad that Adria felt so uncomfortable that she did something so rash. That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself. > The upsetting thing is that our lack of diversity makes these situations so unavoidable. This particular situati…

> That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself. I think that brings up a very good point. You can make these jokes when you feel safe. Hank felt safe at PyCon, it was easy for him to joke right there in earshot of many like-minded people. Adria felt safe tweeting such a joke from her own computer. Adria did not feel safe at PyCon. This should be a huge…

[deleted]

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#342

Post by alextgordon »

DanBC wrote: post #232
briandear wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define offensive. if I think cat photos are offensive would I be in my rights to kick someone out of a conference? I'm not sure what the "offense" was. If someone says "damn," that might be offensive to my dad, but to my coworkers that might be completely fine. In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. So where's the line? Perhaps we could create some new Orwellian l…

> In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. No, that's wrong. There are plenty of legal cases where sexual jokes were found to be creating a hostile work environment. This conference had rules about conduct because of the problem of men making sexual comments to women. The comment "Hank" made was not appropriate. Just because the reaction and consequences were clearl…

Conferences are likely to involve many people from social groups outside your own, with different views on what is acceptable and what is not. That's life...

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#343

Post by gregd »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #280
interpol_p wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I don't get hatred at Hank, I mean, I did initially read it like that. But when I took a step back I started to see it as hatred of being excluded in a field you love. Hatred at the obliviousness of Hank — his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority. I think her view of Hank is to disregard him — kind of "Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side…

> his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority Aren't we granting too much power to minorities? Let me tell you a story that happened to me. I once went to a Java developers meetup. I'm a Lisper, probably the only one that was attending, so I was a clear minority (that was 3 years ago, back before everyone jumped onto functional programming bandwagon a…

Did you just seriously compare being a Lisper to being a minority?

So, if I try to understand your choice of comparisons, do you live with oppression because you're a Lisper?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#344

Post by copsarebastards »

interpol_p wrote: post #168
byuu wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impos…

> To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine.

I think there's a reality here outside of anyone's feelings, which is that the jokes mentioned in the article are neither sexist nor threatening. If she feels attacked or threatened, well, that's her problem.

To be clear, I do believe there is plenty of sexism in the software industry. If there's a joke that we don't know about that Hank made which was actually sexist, then I'm happy he got fired, and I don't think Adria was overreacting. But if the jokes in the article are the full story, then she wasn't even overreacting--she was reacting to something which she shouldn't have reacted to at all. The jokes aren't sexist.

> You claim it's histrionics, but it might be real things she is feeling. What if she really felt this way? Shouldn't we try to understand Adria as well as we understand Hank? By dismissing her so easily we make our field more exclusive. We say, "I can't imagine that so you mustn't have experienced it. It's not a problem because I can't see it."

She probably does feel that way. I have no reason to doubt that she feels the way she says she feels. But just because someone feels threatened doesn't mean their feelings are right. Certainly there are people who would be threatened by a black woman at a conference: and those people can go fuck themselves. It takes more than someone feeling threatened to justify firing someone. I'd have to see some joke that they made which was actually sexist or threatening.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#345

Post by rdtsc »

byuu wrote: post #135
interpol_p wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

One of the giveaways of her character was when she wanted the HN post about him losing his job removed.

What is the reason for that. Seems just like such an irrational move.

Except it isn't.

It isn't because she recognized Hank was using (perhaps inadvertently) her tactics. In her eyes he was telling the world he was a victim. There is nothing more frustrating than having her own methods turning against her.

If anything, that cuts directly to her motivation and is a window into her character.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#346

Post by IneffablePigeon »

JimmyM wrote: post #205
interpol_p wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I don't get hatred at Hank, I mean, I did initially read it like that. But when I took a step back I started to see it as hatred of being excluded in a field you love. Hatred at the obliviousness of Hank — his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority. I think her view of Hank is to disregard him — kind of "Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side…

> Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side. I think Ronson strongly suggests that this is in fact the case. Ronson's a great journalist for acknowledging the complexity of a situation without attempting to offer answers he's unqualified to give, imho. > “So you’re in your new workplace…” (Hank was offered another job right away) “…and you’re talking to a female developer. In what way do you act differently towards…

Agreed, this article is fantastic and so are interpol_p's comments.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#347

Post by kefka »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #278
adwn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as a black Jewish woman Feeling out of place as a black woman I can understand, but how does her religion segregate her from the rest of the audience? Is this difference visible from outside?

Read a little bit on intersectionality [1] and keep in mind that Judaism is a ethnoreligious group that has a history of being oppressed. My personal take on the matter is that Jews also benefit from quite a bit of privilege, at least in the U.S. but it's understandable why someone with a fusion of minority backgrounds would be aware of how these work against them. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

That's right...

Because she identifies with Jew, then she's being repressed. Because she identifies with Black, then she's being repressed. Because she identifies with Woman, then she's being repressed.

In other words, you're going to repress her, whether you like it or not! So stay away from her, or you'll end up in his place.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#348

Post by mercurial »

interpol_p wrote: post #274
mercurial wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would consider shaming them to be "fight," in this instance. More like shooting someone in the back. > I also feel really bad that Adria felt so uncomfortable that she did something so rash. That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself. > The upsetting thing is that our lack of diversity makes these situations so unavoidable. This particular situati…

> That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself. I think that brings up a very good point. You can make these jokes when you feel safe. Hank felt safe at PyCon, it was easy for him to joke right there in earshot of many like-minded people. Adria felt safe tweeting such a joke from her own computer. Adria did not feel safe at PyCon. This should be a huge…

> Adria did not feel safe at PyCon. This should be a huge problem for us.

I don't know what to think of her explanations, which may or may not be sincere, and may or may not have been made up after the fact. Lack of non-white males in the tech industry is definitely a larger issue than this individual case.

> I don't think Adria is very focused on these guys, and for a lot of people that comes off as hatred or a lack of empathy — especially because we, as guys, empathise in particular with Hank. So her lack of acknowledgement is so easily felt as cruel.

I wouldn't go as far as hatred, but lack of empathy, certainly. Judging from her "I wouldn't make jokes if I had kids" comment, she clearly believes he had it coming.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#349

Post by throwaway283719 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #280
interpol_p wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I don't get hatred at Hank, I mean, I did initially read it like that. But when I took a step back I started to see it as hatred of being excluded in a field you love. Hatred at the obliviousness of Hank — his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority. I think her view of Hank is to disregard him — kind of "Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side…

> his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority Aren't we granting too much power to minorities? Let me tell you a story that happened to me. I once went to a Java developers meetup. I'm a Lisper, probably the only one that was attending, so I was a clear minority (that was 3 years ago, back before everyone jumped onto functional programming bandwagon a…

The situation is different because there isn't a 2000+ year history of Java developers discriminating against Lisp developers.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#350

Post by bjornsing »

TomSawyer wrote: post #256
bjornsing wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and her own childhood. We tend to relativize bad things in terms of what we've experienced ourselves. If I had seen my father beat the teeth out of my mothers mouth with a hammer I'm not so sure I'd be up in arms about somebody losing their job...

So you're saying that you'd be irreparably damaged for life? Overcoming those past experiences means understanding that they were aberrations.

That depends. If you think that somebody who feels limited empathy with someone who lost their job (and quickly got another one) is "irreparably damaged for life", then perhaps yes.

But you could think of it in the opposite way as well: Perhaps our empathy should be directed more towards those that have it toughest in life, and less towards those with whom we can easily identify? In that case I'd say it's the 4chan guys that are "irreparably damaged", and the HN crowd obsessed with Hank's restitution... well, "damaged" but perhaps not "irreparably". ;)

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