231–240 of 528 posts
One interesting aspect that seems to be completely left out of that discussion is the issue of labour protection laws. Firing someone in Europe for some minor issue like that would probably be a major legal issue here.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whether they should ? I don't know. Maybe. Sexism in tech is a weird and hard problem, and if regulating private conversations helps solving it, then I'm cautiously willing to give it a try. Whether they do ? Yes. From the CoC[1]: > Be careful in the words that you choose. Remember that sexist, racist, and other exclusionary jokes can be offensive to those around you. Excessive swearing and offensive jokes are not ap…
Define offensive. if I think cat photos are offensive would I be in my rights to kick someone out of a conference? I'm not sure what the "offense" was. If someone says "damn," that might be offensive to my dad, but to my coworkers that might be completely fine. In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. So where's the line? Perhaps we could create some new Orwellian l…
No, that's wrong. There are plenty of legal cases where sexual jokes were found to be creating a hostile work environment.
This conference had rules about conduct because of the problem of men making sexual comments to women.
The comment "Hank" made was not appropriate. Just because the reaction and consequences were clearly awful it doesn't mean he was fine to make those kind of comments.
> So where's the line?
Don't make "jokes" about dongles in a voice that can be overheard by anyone but the intended audience, and make sure you know those people well.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way I believe exactly the opposite. People say horrible things hiding behind anonymity. Those of us who freely identify ourselves actually attempt (albeit sometimes feebly) to talk to others as if we were in person. If we just treated each other on-line like we did in person, most of this shit would never happen. - Proud self-identified member o…
I have to agree. Tying yourself to your on-line identity shows that you're willing to take responsibility for your actions. There are places where you might not want to be recognized for some reason, just as there are such places in real-life (I would feel as uncomfortable browsing Silk Road for nootropics as I would feel visiting a sex shop in the shadier parts of te city) - but in general, I try to stand by what I…
But yes, it's really scary that this guy's employer found out about what he said over a photo on Twitter, and still fired him for it.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The usual response to danger is flee or fight. She didn't flee. She didn't confront them. She shamed them publicly instead (which made it considerably more likely that they would take revenge physically instead). What is more likely, that she did this because she felt threatened, or because she felt like she could use her status to get back at the system? Not to mention the part where she herself tweets dick jokes.
I would consider shaming them to be "fight," in this instance. I feel really bad for Hank, he totally did not deserve it. I also feel really bad that Adria felt so uncomfortable that she did something so rash. Both of their actions and reactions seem so natural to me. The upsetting thing is that our lack of diversity makes these situations so unavoidable.
More like shooting someone in the back.
> I also feel really bad that Adria felt so uncomfortable that she did something so rash.
That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself.
> The upsetting thing is that our lack of diversity makes these situations so unavoidable.
This particular situation was avoidable. But yes, diversity is a big issue.
> Both of their actions and reactions seem so natural to me. The upsetting thing is that our lack of diversity makes these situations so unavoidable.
Everybody makes bad call. The difference is in how you handle your bad decisions, and what lessons you draw. Adria does not even begin to recognize that she acted wrongly towards these two guys, and generally gave a bad name to feminists.
““Maybe it was [Hank] who started all of this,” Adria told me in the cafe at San Francisco Airport. “No one would have known he got fired until he complained. Maybe he’s to blame for complaining that he got fired. Maybe he secretly seeded the hate groups. Right?” This paragraph really gave me chills... A lot of insight about her thought process, and a bit terrifying in my opinion.
Similar case is happening to the two tormentors of Curt Schilling (a former baseball player)'s daughter. He tweeted congrats to his daughter for going to college. Predictably some of the replies were nasty. He went after two and doxxed them. Now these two will bear the result of what went down. https://38pitches.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/is-it-twitters-fa... I suspect this will happen more and more.
The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…
why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way I believe exactly the opposite. People say horrible things hiding behind anonymity. Those of us who freely identify ourselves actually attempt (albeit sometimes feebly) to talk to others as if we were in person. If we just treated each other on-line like we did in person, most of this shit would never happen. - Proud self-identified member o…
Exposing that you are a woman via your name over the internet results in harassment. Same with being black, Arab, or Asian. Same with Gay, TG, etc.
If you'd like to experience this effect, create a fictional profile which publicly advertises you as a "furry", and try and interact with the internet. You'll be amazed (and repulsed) by the responses.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
If your mental/emotional state is at odds with the reality of your circumstances, therapy is in order, not scolding the hapless bystanders you blame for your delusions.
Are you suggesting she is delusional because she felt something that you cannot imagine feeling? When a woman in our field says " I felt this way " we say " No no, she's delusional, therapy is in order. " Instead of asking why and trying to understand what led to these feelings. This sort of behaviour doesn't help us become more inclusive.
If she felt in physical danger when in reality she very much wasn't, then yes, that's delusional, almost by definition.
One important point here is that Adria's role was that of developer evangelist - a role that requires good community engagement. It's then not such a stretch to imagine that her ability to do this job well might be compromised in the aftermath of such an event. It's thus not totally unreasonable for her to be let go for this, even if it's not her fault. Having said that, I find both sides really depressing. The brogr…
"The brogrammer/franerdity approach does alienate women, which is why it should as much as possible be suppressed" No, fuck that. Fuck suppressing people. Who are you to say what should and should not be suppressed? What is wrong with innuendos, one of the oldest if not the oldest kind of joke about one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity? Someone is offended by a joke (and with that I mean any joke)? They sh…
Many companies (possibly correctly) hire and fire based on perceived culture fit, and if your is less accepting of anyone who doesn't fit your slightly macho mold, then women will find it harder to get a job.
This means that such working environments should be thought of as unacceptable, yes.
Obviously there are different levels, but yes, a culture where it's acceptable to make crude sex jokes on the job would deter many of the women I know.
It's just a joke doesn't cut it - especially when you extend that to 'any joke'.
I am not saying that this specific case is such an example
> “Somebody getting fired is pretty bad,” I said. “I know you didn’t call for him to be fired. But you must have felt pretty bad.” > “Not too bad,” she said. She thought more and shook her head decisively. “He’s a white male. I’m a black Jewish female. He was saying things that could be inferred as offensive to me, sitting in front of him. I do have empathy for him but it only goes so far. If he had Down’s Syndrome a…
What makes me laugh is where she says she's not to blame for what happened to Hank yet she then blames HIM for what happened to her. If she didn't send the tweet, he wouldn't have got fired. If he didn't get fired, he wouldn't have posted on HN about being fired. If he didn't post on HN then none of this would've happened. Basically it all stems from her original tweet.. I'm not condoning any of the behaviour but it…
"I'm sorry you're irrationally afraid of overheard immature jokes"?