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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#91

Post by adwn »

Jem wrote: post #58
imjoshholloway wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes me laugh is where she says she's not to blame for what happened to Hank yet she then blames HIM for what happened to her. If she didn't send the tweet, he wouldn't have got fired. If he didn't get fired, he wouldn't have posted on HN about being fired. If he didn't post on HN then none of this would've happened. Basically it all stems from her original tweet.. I'm not condoning any of the behaviour but it…

Totally agree with your first 3 sentences, can't agree with the last. Finding the courage to stand up and directly address someone who is making you feel uncomfortable - especially if you're a minority in a certain environment - takes a lot of courage and absolute certainty that you're not going to get a mouthful of abuse back. (I think talking directly to the conf organisers/staff would have been the preferred route…

> Finding the courage to stand up and directly address someone who is making you feel uncomfortable [...]

She didn't. Instead of directly addressing them and giving them a chance to explain and apologize, she instead proceeded to put them in a public pillory. That's the opposite of courageous, it's malicious, sneaky, and underhanded.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#92

Post by interpol_p »

near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger.

I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority, and to have someone sitting in earshot comfortably make jokes that make me feel threatened all while watching a talk on inclusiveness. While the emotional image of a little girl wanting to get into your field is up on screen.

And then to have everyone defend that person and behave like you're the one that fired him just because you voiced your discomfort publicly.

I don't agree with Adria's public tweet, and Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it. But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it.

From that article it sounds like she came out of this worse than Hank, who got another job almost immediately. And you have to wonder — did Hank get another job so fast because our field is dominated by men, and they are likely to feel for him and have the same initial reactions as we do when reading this article? Unfortunately there are not many people who will feel for Adria. I'm sure she knows it.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#93

Post by stfu »

probably_wrong wrote: post #80
codecondo wrote: post #3

Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. In fact, he only expressed everything that had happened to him, and it just so happened that many people decided to stand up for him in what seems to be a situation of very, very poor judgement. On the other hand, great and naturally flowing writing by the author, really enjoyed swimming through the story!

> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's or…

Do you really think that conferences' code of conduct should regulate what two friends are saying to each other privately?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#94

Post by vinceguidry »

near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

The chances of this sort of thing happening to any given person are astronomically small. The Internet has a fairly finite capacity for outrage. There's only so many memes that can grab attention at any one time. And the amount of that attention that has to be focused in order to achieve something like removing you from your job is just immense. And even then, you can rebuild. Eventually.

There's no rebuilding from the kinds of public shaming that went on through history or even right now in the rest of the world. Imagine being a pariah in the only small village you've ever known in a world where every other village won't accept you at all. Even what Adria went through was tame compared to that.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#95

Post by bjornsing »

near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

Well... I do agree it's not the most empathic response, but if you read the article again is that the weirdest lack of appropriate emotion you see?

I must say I'm more concerned about the combination of her father beating her mother to pieces with a hammer, and her writing an upbeat and loving letter to him some 20 years later... To me that's the heartbreaking story here.

UPDATE: Edited to clarify that I think there's room to empathize with Adria.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#96

Post by altcognito »

Jem wrote: post #58
imjoshholloway wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes me laugh is where she says she's not to blame for what happened to Hank yet she then blames HIM for what happened to her. If she didn't send the tweet, he wouldn't have got fired. If he didn't get fired, he wouldn't have posted on HN about being fired. If he didn't post on HN then none of this would've happened. Basically it all stems from her original tweet.. I'm not condoning any of the behaviour but it…

Totally agree with your first 3 sentences, can't agree with the last. Finding the courage to stand up and directly address someone who is making you feel uncomfortable - especially if you're a minority in a certain environment - takes a lot of courage and absolute certainty that you're not going to get a mouthful of abuse back. (I think talking directly to the conf organisers/staff would have been the preferred route…

Handling it personally makes a lot of sense. I have children, I don't teach them to immediately run to authority the minute they are offended. You should be able to confront/request somebody behave appropriately without them "giving back a mouthful of abuse". And therein lies the key, if they give you back a mouthful of abuse, then take it higher up. There are absolutely situations where going directly to conf organizers and staff is appropriate, but this doesn't seem like one to me.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#97

Post by masklinn »

throwawayaway wrote: post #67
masklinn wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With enough money in the fired party's bank account, it would be. Most of the US is at-will, employees can be fired for no reason or any reason as long as there's no breach of relevant federal statutes (Equal Pay Act, Civil Rights Act, Age Discrimination in Employment Act, Americans with Disability Act, …) — the latter being why employees are generally fired with absolutely no reason provided just to avoid any poss…

I'm sure proceedings have been successfully made in such states, at great financial expense, to prove that even though no reason was given "federal statutes" were breached. Your argument that that has never happened and can never happen is much harder to make convincingly.

> Your argument that that has never happened and can never happen is much harder to make convincingly.

No, my argument is that the vast majority of firings in the US are not covered by any labour protection laws or agreements. It's not a question of money when there's no law or contract to build your case on.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#98

Post by easytiger »

interpol_p wrote: post #57
[deleted] wrote: post #9

[deleted]

I initially had a similar reaction but then forced myself to take a step back. I think I can sympathise with Adria regarding her initial reaction. She's a minority surrounded by men who are happy to make these sorts of jokes within earshot. It sounds harmless to us, but I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman. It must be very difficult to attend such a conference and then hea…

> but I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman.

Is this a joke?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#99

Post by dude17172009 »

Jem wrote: post #58
imjoshholloway wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes me laugh is where she says she's not to blame for what happened to Hank yet she then blames HIM for what happened to her. If she didn't send the tweet, he wouldn't have got fired. If he didn't get fired, he wouldn't have posted on HN about being fired. If he didn't post on HN then none of this would've happened. Basically it all stems from her original tweet.. I'm not condoning any of the behaviour but it…

Totally agree with your first 3 sentences, can't agree with the last. Finding the courage to stand up and directly address someone who is making you feel uncomfortable - especially if you're a minority in a certain environment - takes a lot of courage and absolute certainty that you're not going to get a mouthful of abuse back. (I think talking directly to the conf organisers/staff would have been the preferred route…

But if she was scared, why would she tweet using her real account.
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