Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life • Hacker News Board

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#51

Post by digi_owl » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:36 PM UTC

coob wrote: post #38

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it just me or are those both terrible overreactions from the companies' sides? No it's not just you, the responses from the companies were, as far as I'm concerned, illegal; the guy was fired for something he said (freedom of speech?), and she was fired through 4chan blackmailing her employer (as far as I could tell). Of course, I don't know what kind of employee protection people have; IIRC the IT business isn'…

Freedom of speech only apply to the state. The state cannot restrict your freedom of speech. Your employer can.

And by making more and more communication channels "corporate" the government can wash their hands...

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#52

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:37 PM UTC

celticninja wrote: post #33

maxerickson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was that many people went a lot further than standing up for Hank. (I thought her reaction was wrong, pretty much from the first step, but it wasn't something uninvolved people needed to pay much attention to either.)

But that was not Hank's fault or Hank's problem in all fairness.

I don't see how I've even suggested otherwise.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#53

Post by masklinn » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:37 PM UTC

throwawayaway wrote: post #24

oracle2025 wrote: post #19

One interesting aspect that seems to be completely left out of that discussion is the issue of labour protection laws. Firing someone in Europe for some minor issue like that would probably be a major legal issue here.

With enough money in the fired party's bank account, it would be. I think the only difference between Europe and the US in this regard is the amount of money required to get justice.

> With enough money in the fired party's bank account, it would be.

Most of the US is at-will, employees can be fired for no reason or any reason as long as there's no breach of relevant federal statutes (Equal Pay Act, Civil Rights Act, Age Discrimination in Employment Act, Americans with Disability Act, …) — the latter being why employees are generally fired with absolutely no reason provided just to avoid any possibility of status breach.

That means for most firings there is no legal recourse, because there is no legal labour protection.

Most of Europe is very different on that point, you can't fire somebody just because you feel like it, and there are a number of labour-focused courts which tend to have a very bad view of companies trying to break or skirt labour laws.

It's not a question of money, it's a question of laws, or the lack thereof.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#54

Post by celticninja » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:38 PM UTC

moomin wrote: post #11

Let's be clear here, Jon Ronson spent a fair bit of time lying to Adria Richards to put together his book, his portrayal of the timeline is inaccurate and even if this wasn't the case it'd be a phenomenal amount of false equivalence: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/02/the-falsest-of-false-equi... TL;DR; Yeah he got fired, but he didn't get fired because of an internet backlash.

can you provide any supporting facts that Jon Ronson lied? I mean you say he lied about hsi reasons for interviewing her, i.e. said it was about sexism. However he has not lied about what she said or what actually happened. You do not deny that he has quoted her faithfully.

To me it seems that she was expecting that her minority status would protect her, she goes to lengths to point out she is black, female and jewish. who cares? And then the article has a huge backstory on why her life was so tough. you know what so were many peoples, the only reason to make an issue of how hard you had it as a kid is to try and engineer some sympathy. either what she did was right or it was wrong but her upbringing has nothing to do with that.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#55

Post by celticninja » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:38 PM UTC

jackvalentine wrote: post #42

moomin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very hard to sympathize with anyone when you're reading someone perform a character assassination on them.

I've deleted what I wrote because of the scary number of upvotes it was gaining. I don't feel like spending the rest of the night trying to defend something about something that is so devisive even if I am on the "popular" side in this particular forum. I didn't write anything profound and it began to feel like cheap point scoring.

that's very sad, but I understand why you are doing it.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#56

Post by weland » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:38 PM UTC

MatekCopatek wrote: post #4

I remember when this story happened and after reading it all again, I still think that what makes it so terrible is the fact both sides were fired. One of them because he was behaving immaturely at a conference and another because her employer was getting ddosed. Is it just me or are those both terrible overreactions from the companies' sides? The whole sexism discussion is perfectly valid and very important, we need…

At the risk of sounding insensitive, in what freezing hell is a remark about forking a guy's repo or something sexist?

Rather unprofessional, yeah, maybe -- which is why it wasn't spoken aloud on stage, but whispered between two colleagues. But sexist? Can someone draw me a diagram about how that conveys any form of discrimination, prejudice, violence, dislike or oppression of women?

This sounds like completely selfish bullshit to me. It's a bloody overheard remark. And better yet, it was handled in a very childish way: there are laws against discrimination. If someone feels they were subjected to any kind of -ism, there are courts of law that decide that, you just have to go to the police. But sure, why not settle it the cutthroat way, involving employers and family on the way.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#57

Post by interpol_p » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:39 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #9

[deleted]

I initially had a similar reaction but then forced myself to take a step back. I think I can sympathise with Adria regarding her initial reaction.

She's a minority surrounded by men who are happy to make these sorts of jokes within earshot. It sounds harmless to us, but I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman.

It must be very difficult to attend such a conference and then hear a joke like that — made with all the ease and comfort of someone who has no trouble fitting in. It could push you to do something rash like tweet a photo stating how upset it makes you.

Hank did something stupid and insensitive. His actions made a woman feel excluded, even during a talk about being more inclusive to women. But Hank also seems like a good guy who made a mistake that anyone could make.

The overreactions here seem to be on the part of their employers. It fuelled the fire that hurt them both and made the public angry.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#58

Post by Jem » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:39 PM UTC

imjoshholloway wrote: post #50

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #8

> “Somebody getting fired is pretty bad,” I said. “I know you didn’t call for him to be fired. But you must have felt pretty bad.” > “Not too bad,” she said. She thought more and shook her head decisively. “He’s a white male. I’m a black Jewish female. He was saying things that could be inferred as offensive to me, sitting in front of him. I do have empathy for him but it only goes so far. If he had Down’s Syndrome a…

What makes me laugh is where she says she's not to blame for what happened to Hank yet she then blames HIM for what happened to her. If she didn't send the tweet, he wouldn't have got fired. If he didn't get fired, he wouldn't have posted on HN about being fired. If he didn't post on HN then none of this would've happened. Basically it all stems from her original tweet.. I'm not condoning any of the behaviour but it…

Totally agree with your first 3 sentences, can't agree with the last. Finding the courage to stand up and directly address someone who is making you feel uncomfortable - especially if you're a minority in a certain environment - takes a lot of courage and absolute certainty that you're not going to get a mouthful of abuse back.

(I think talking directly to the conf organisers/staff would have been the preferred route, personally.)

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#59

Post by aragot » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:39 PM UTC

MatekCopatek wrote: post #4

I remember when this story happened and after reading it all again, I still think that what makes it so terrible is the fact both sides were fired. One of them because he was behaving immaturely at a conference and another because her employer was getting ddosed. Is it just me or are those both terrible overreactions from the companies' sides? The whole sexism discussion is perfectly valid and very important, we need…

It often happens in US to fire executives because of bad PR, undepending on their work. It doesn't have to be - How do they do on other continents? And this kind of be-perfect-or-be-banned rule doesn't have to extend to LTEs or even contractors.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#60

Post by probably_wrong » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 12:39 PM UTC

moomin wrote: post #11

Let's be clear here, Jon Ronson spent a fair bit of time lying to Adria Richards to put together his book, his portrayal of the timeline is inaccurate and even if this wasn't the case it'd be a phenomenal amount of false equivalence: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/02/the-falsest-of-false-equi... TL;DR; Yeah he got fired, but he didn't get fired because of an internet backlash.

You are probably referring to this paragraph:

> I did not get the guy fired; his own behaviour, which his employer considered another strike on his already written-up employee file, caused his employer to make the decision to fire him.

I'd like to quote Wikipedia when I say "citation needed". Even though it's an interesting post and raises good questions, I don't think it backs your TL;DR.