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What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

newyorker.com

71–80 of 94 posts

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#71
post #2

The article says humans can do "transfer learning" while machine can't. It shouldn't be impossible to implement transfer learning in machines too.

I don't see anywhere it says machines can't; it says DeepMind doesn't. There are a few philosophers who believe human thought is more or less magic and can't be replicated in any way but all of the arguments I've seen are either deeply flawed logically or are so specific as to more or less read they can't "be" human, which I'll accept as true but isn't terribly interesting.

There are plenty of smart people elsewhere who believe the human mind is un-simulatable. For example, Roger Penrose argues that thought processes are deterministic but non-algorithmic.

I've never really understood that perspective, though. Surely, in the absolute worst case, we could just make an atom-for-atom copy of a human brain? Even if you take seriously the idea that there's some kind of magic consciousness juice that exists outside the universe, evolution has managed to hook into it and surely so can we.

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#72
post #31

This is impressive. The current approach will work only for games where the whole state is on-screen and planning isn't required. A pure reactive system will work for that. I used to say that a key component of AI that was missing was the ability to get through the next few seconds of life without falling down or bumping into anything. I went through Stanford CS when the top-down logicians were in charge of AI. That…

> It's not yet possible to get a hierarchical system to emerge from machine learning. Medium term planning as an emergent behavior is a near term big challenge for AI.

It's also a big challenge for AI safety / Machine Ethics / Formal Verification. It's notoriously hard to prove statements about Emergent behavior in complex or dynamic systems.

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#73
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two sides to this, world simulation and AI. As the other replies already said, current AI isn't close to toddler-level (there's no reasoning going on in the DeepMind work, just statistical correlation). We're also way off on the world simulation side - show me a realistic world simulator that can run close to realtime. Physically-based rendering is indeed impressive but this only accounts for visual percept…

Isn't human reasoning mostly a bunch of statistical correlation? We see a ball drop, think "things fall when dropped", and that's our model, reinforced by thousands of everyday experiences. It's purely based on outcomes. We don't naturally reason through potential causes like "Mass exerts a gravitational force which attracts other mass."

we don't? probably because you got it backwards. The idea of attraction entails gravitation (and other forces that hold the ball up before the drop), which is the conclusion of a line of reasoning, that is a more detailed, generalized version of the observation "things fall when dropped". Sure, backtracking is a rather simple, if not the most simple approach, but for N=NP kind of problems, presumably, it is the only one and heuristics only change the order of the track, but never reduce complexity.

That's my layman opinion, that seems to agree with the etymology of reason. Reason > ... > Ratio ... Reor. Reor is latin for to think, or calculate. Arithmetic in its simplest form, addition in the unary system ie. arranging pebbles (= lt. calculus), counting knots, simply counting. Now backtracking is just enumeration and elimination of possibilities. Ratio itself means measure, and a measurement always entails statistical error (does heisenbergs uncertainty principle prove that?).

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#74
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasoning involves inferring and applying causation which is different from correlation [1]. One can possibly define process of "understanding" as building a "model" of the system where previously unseen events can be predicated or justified using the model. The big difference in "human understanding" seems to be that we can extract fairly minimal set of laws that govern the system from our observations that we can c…

> Reasoning involves inferring and applying causation which is different from correlation A couple points here: * The way humans model causation is just non-naive statistical correlation (controlling for variables). That technique is still accurately described as "statistical correlation" * I'm not even convinced that human reasoning _does_ imply generating a model of causation. Let's exclude things like rigorous sci…

> Let's exclude things like rigorous scientific studies for the purpose of the discussion and focus on day-to-day human reasoning

I think you'll need to look at the other end of the spectrum to see an abundance of (wrong?) models of causality: Religion and Law.

There are no "confirmed" cases of anyone actually going to heaven or hell or purgatory (or whatever else), and yet many of us still conform to some arbitary ruleset in the hopes of eventually ending (or not ending) up in one of thoses places, because we have constructed some model of how doing this gets you into hell and doing that gets you into heaven.

Similarly, we have plenty of evidence on how companies spend huge effort on finding loopholes in tax laws in order to avoid taxes, and yet instead of simplyfing the ruleset (so that there are obviously no holes in it) we still opt for piling on more laws (so that there are no obvious holes in it) because we construct (faulty?) models of how those new rules will prevent further exploits.

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anywhere it says machines can't; it says DeepMind doesn't. There are a few philosophers who believe human thought is more or less magic and can't be replicated in any way but all of the arguments I've seen are either deeply flawed logically or are so specific as to more or less read they can't "be" human, which I'll accept as true but isn't terribly interesting.

There are plenty of smart people elsewhere who believe the human mind is un-simulatable. For example, Roger Penrose argues that thought processes are deterministic but non-algorithmic. I've never really understood that perspective, though. Surely, in the absolute worst case, we could just make an atom-for-atom copy of a human brain? Even if you take seriously the idea that there's some kind of magic consciousness jui…

Except that atoms are not homogenous entities.

Even assuming you'd somehow manage to produce and combine atoms to a spec, there's positively no way of obtaining that spec.

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of smart people elsewhere who believe the human mind is un-simulatable. For example, Roger Penrose argues that thought processes are deterministic but non-algorithmic. I've never really understood that perspective, though. Surely, in the absolute worst case, we could just make an atom-for-atom copy of a human brain? Even if you take seriously the idea that there's some kind of magic consciousness jui…

Except that atoms are not homogenous entities. Even assuming you'd somehow manage to produce and combine atoms to a spec, there's positively no way of obtaining that spec.

Even if thinking does somehow depend on quantum effects, it seems hugely unlikely that it would depend on the specific quantum state of individual atoms.

If it does, you don't need a spec of that state, since we know that it can emerge from something simpler (humans start out as a single cell, after all, and so in fact did all of humanity). You don't need the whole system, just the right initial conditions.

At that point you're growing a brain rather than engineering one, and maybe it takes you no closer to understanding the mechanics. But the point stands that it must be possible to construct a brain in principle, because it's already happened so many times before.

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#77
post #48

This is actually pretty scary. It is basically giving AI a human-like form of will. It "desires" what you program it to desire and goes about achieving it, learning from its' own mistakes and becoming increasingly proficient at manipulating its' environment to achieve its' goal(s) along the way. It makes me excited, but also quite frightened to think what goals people might give AIs like this in the future...

Well, that kind of is the definition of a learning agent. Any learning system would be "learning from its' own mistakes and becoming increasingly proficient" and any agent would, by definition, be "manipulating its environment to achieve its goals".

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#78
post #31

This is impressive. The current approach will work only for games where the whole state is on-screen and planning isn't required. A pure reactive system will work for that. I used to say that a key component of AI that was missing was the ability to get through the next few seconds of life without falling down or bumping into anything. I went through Stanford CS when the top-down logicians were in charge of AI. That…

I remember an AI researcher (I forget who) recently said something to the effect that early AI research produced all sorts of planning algorithms. E.g. the top down camp of AI. But they weren't capable of working with the real world because we didn't have very good low level perception. E.g. this complicated algorithm for planning the robot's actions, but it depended on getting input about where objects are. Now we h…

I think you hit the nail on the head here. That's one of the most interesting parts of thinking about GAI for me. Which parts will end up being top-down and which parts will end up being bottom-up? And even if we have evidence that a certain part is TD or BU in humans, do we even want machine intelligence to work the same way?

The article says something to the effect of "no matter how much you advance this strategy, you never get a toddler out of it." And that makes sense because, presumably, certain parts of the human brain exercise some sort of top-down control over the sensory-data-processing and other parts.

For example, it seems like the human mind is built to see things as things. Does the human mind reallY start off seeing "pixels" and then learn by itself to think of the word as solid, whole objects instead of collections of similarly-colored photons/pixels or atoms? It seems like this is a universal use-case and it would make sense if our tendency to see the world in terms of "things" instead of patches of color is built-in (gestalt psychology seems to suggest this as well).

It sounds like the AI in the article starts off from pixels and then builds up some sort of model of blocks, the ball, paddle, game physics, etc, (but then again, maybe it doesn't have those models at all and is just doing statistical analysis on patterns of pixels). Either way, it likely doesn't have any higher, context-independent model of objects/things like humans do. I suspect this may be one of the hurdles in transfer learning. Humans think of objects as having certain properties. When other objects in other contexts appear to have similar properties, we guess that they may have other properties in common which gives at least a rough model of the new object.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is: Humans have hierarchical models of the world that let us think separately about patterns of light, atoms/molecules, whole physical objects/things, systems, etc. They are all first-class citizens and we ascribe properties to each of them. We already have a rough-model of anything at the same level, but a different context, and with similar-enough properties to something we already know. It seems to me like this is fundamentally connected to humans' ability to do transfer-learning. Could this effect be achieved through bottom-up algorithms, or are we going to have to figure out some top-down way of developing transferrable, generalizable, hierarchical models?

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#79
post #6

"video games" (read "world simulator"). The important thing about their work is that it is deliberately marching down the path of more and more complex world simulations. We experience the world at one second per second. To learn to walk we must first fall, and we fall at 32 feet/second^2. There's a hard limit on how fast we can make mistakes (like tripping) and so there is a hard limit on how fast we can learn. Comp…

Producing a simulated toddler is way beyond our current capabilities, no matter how much simulated experience we give it. We simply don't know (yet) how to program said toddler's brain.

Exactly. I'd happy to see ant level AI first.

Re: What Google DeepMind Means for A.I.

#80
post #19
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Producing a simulated toddler is way beyond our current capabilities, no matter how much simulated experience we give it. We simply don't know (yet) how to program said toddler's brain.

Evolution didn't know, too. But it happened. And we easily find criteria saying that thing doesn't behave like a toddler. It would be a huge step forward to see a list of positive criteria.

> Evolution didn't know, too. But it happened.

Whilst technically correct, unguided evolution doesn't necessarily help us.

We know that intelligence can be achieved by one brain's worth of matter, suitably arranged, in a few years. In fact, with an extra 9 months and a suitable environment, we can do the same with a single fertilised egg. Yet reproducing these feats artificially is well beyond our current abilities.

On the other hand, evolution required a whole planet and billions of years before it stumbled on intelligence; many orders of mangnitude more effort than the above.

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