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What happened to all the non-programmers?

benkuhn.net

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Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#61
This subject is one that interests me a lot.

As I've mentioned before (in fact, I created this account to post about it a few weeks ago), I'm MtF transgender, and it's been my observation and the observation of the trans communities I participate in that a disproportionately high percentage of MtF trans people work in the tech industry and/or are tech hobbyists. The "MtF computer geek" is in fact one of the most prevalent -- and in my experience, one of the most true -- stereotypes of trans people I've seen.

I'm reminded of the old Russian meme, where one person wanders into an anime IRC channel and asks "Hello, is this an anime channel?", followed by "How do I patch KDE2 under FreeBSD?". It became a popular meme because it's true: anime fans tend to be computer geeks. I've also seen this same exact joke posted in trans communities, by the way...

(Oh, and lest I forget, a huge chunk of the trans community is into anime, too.)

There is something about certain characteristics that heavily draws people to the tech industry.

If you're trans? If you like anime? If you play sports like Ultimate and rock climbing? You're probably a techie.

Honestly, I've noticed that for many of these (e.g. anime, Ultimate), the inverse is true as well, and if being trans wasn't hard-wired and such a tiny, tiny minority of the population (most estimates I've heard are around 0.3%), I'd bet a huge amount of techies would be trans.

I think of all the theories OP proposed, the most likely one is that "programmer culture" is a distinct subculture much like e.g., "academic culture".

Of course, there are a few reasons for that. If you look at ESR's "A Portrait of J. Random Hacker" (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/appendixb.html), he absolutely nails a personality type that goes into some of this. The section on sports, for example, goes into how hackers are drawn to sports that focus on self-discipline and technical ability.

Another is that tech stuff is looked down upon by society. Mainstream society sees us as weirdos to be shunned. You know who else societies see that way? Anime fans. Trans people. By and large, all three communities are very accepting of cultural differences. For example, techies will happily accept trans people into their communities because they know what it's like to be marginalized. And I think LGBT people are more likely to hang out with communities focused on marginalized hobbies than other minorities, because of how we're perceived. Racial and ethnic minorities are set apart because of how they look and sound. LGBT people, on the other hand, are set apart because of what we do, and "set apart for what we do" is also a good description of how techies and anime fans are separated from mainstream culture.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#62
post #31

When I play softball is what feels like the only time I meet someone who isn't a programmer here. I briefly took swing dancing lessons with my SO and it was 90% programmers, maybe more.

I'm pretty sure that's the go-to activity to meet women for a male programmer.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#63
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the dichotomy between workers and capitalists it does. Though I doubt that's what was meant.

Marxist.org has this definition ( https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e.htm ): Petty-bourgeois ... 2) Also refers to the growing group of workers whose function is management of the bourgeois apparatus. These workers do not produce commodities, but instead manage the production, distribution, and/or exchange of commodities and/or services owned by their bourgeois employers. While these workers are a part of the…

That describes managers, maybe programmers writing internal software if you're really stretching it. Thanks for the definition though.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#64
post #25
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Btw we are working class too, even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... At least I'm not living of off strutting around in my park telling my gardener what to do while stroking a white cat. I don't have employees in my factory solely working for me generating my income while I twiddle my thumbs. I'm actually sitting on a computer working for money every day, so: working class.

> even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... And I hate to break to it you Google and Facebook employees, but your salary ain't that great when you factor in cost-of-living. There are many, many thousands of devs across America making much more than you once you account for cost-of-living (and you should). But between the proven wage suppression, ageism, and now this passing meme that somehow making $100,000 in the m…

A few things you're missing: The perks. If my company feeds me and provides transportation stipend my only bills are rent, utils, and fun. Utils are the same as just about anywhere else in my experience. The rent is the only killer.

You're also looking at it the wrong way. Many of us don't plan on staying here. Yes our savings are very small in comparison to cost of living while we're here. It's when we leave that our money becomes very valuable. Knowing the ratio of your savings per month(in the bay area) vs cost of living where you want to be (somewhere cheap) can be very motivating to keep you here (my ratio is 4:1 , so every month I'm here I save enough money to live 4 months at the place I plan to live). It's sacrificing a few years of insane living cost to have a cushion that allows you a comfortable life after the craziness as well as a resume that looks outstanding. There's also the possibility your startup sells, but I can't claim that as a valley only perk because that can obviously happen anywhere, but I think you're a bit more likely to have it happen in the bay area.

You also meet a great deal of people and make a great deal of friends that love the same things you love all the way down to a specific framework (there are no Flask meetups in milwaukee). You also meet lots of people who introduce you to things you never knew you would love, which is often MORE fun.

All that being said, I agree that there are more efficient places to live where you could save more, and there are companies outside of the bay area doing all of the above things, but the luck factor there grows as you get away from the valley because there are fewer positions.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#65
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can analyze data and use R and not be a programmer. Less than half of the students in my advanced stats classes at college which used R were CS majors. Granted, for me, knowing how to program made things a lot less frustrating. Spreadsheet programs are built for analysis without deep programming knowledge too.

I am not, nor have I ever been, a CS major. Yet I am a programmer.

Same here, but my experience is that I only know other programmers through work. I'm sure that's as much of my own fault as anything but I still wish I had more people in my circle who I could talk to about work and my technical interests.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#67
post #25
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Btw we are working class too, even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... At least I'm not living of off strutting around in my park telling my gardener what to do while stroking a white cat. I don't have employees in my factory solely working for me generating my income while I twiddle my thumbs. I'm actually sitting on a computer working for money every day, so: working class.

> even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... And I hate to break to it you Google and Facebook employees, but your salary ain't that great when you factor in cost-of-living. There are many, many thousands of devs across America making much more than you once you account for cost-of-living (and you should). But between the proven wage suppression, ageism, and now this passing meme that somehow making $100,000 in the m…

Well, it actually makes you part of the global elite, when you're well off in a country where being well off isn't just not starving:

"An American having the average income of the bottom U.S. decile is better-off than 2/3 of world population." (Milanovic 2002, p. 50)

"The top 10% of the U.S. population has an aggregate income equal to income of the poorest 43 percent of people in the world, or differently put, total income of the richest 25 million Americans is equal to total income of almost 2 billion people." (Milanovic 2002, p. 50)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_inequality

If you earn $100K and are single, you're in the 96th percentile. If you're married and only income, you're in the 67th. (http://www.whatsmypercent.com/)

Is it a huge salary? Sure it isn't. Having a bigger income and more savings is always welcome, but don't act like we're in the brink of starvation.

Take home money in our profession is still usually higher even when cost of living in the Bay Area is higher than in most places on Earth. You can eventually move away from the Bay Area with the savings you accumulated there. Of course, if the standard of living you expect is having a three bedroom house, it's going to be hard to attain, but looking at people in comparable urban areas (London, Paris, etc.) the expectation is that you'll live in a tiny apartment, just like in SF.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#68
post #35
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, we distinguish between the "working class" and the "professional class", with programmers falling into the latter group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#The_prof...

In the UK it's basically if you work for wages and/or in low skilled or manual labour.

Working for wages is not enough to qualify: doctor, university professor, airline pilot, solicitor... All traditionally firmly middle class professions despite working for a living.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#69

A person who looks around at the people he's socializing with, then apparently immediately grabs a computer, downloads a statistical data set and begins to analyze it in R wonders why he's surrounded by other programmers?

You can analyze data and use R and not be a programmer. Less than half of the students in my advanced stats classes at college which used R were CS majors. Granted, for me, knowing how to program made things a lot less frustrating. Spreadsheet programs are built for analysis without deep programming knowledge too.

I'm a programmer and I hate doing this kind of statistics analysis. Not my cup of tea.

Re: What happened to all the non-programmers?

#70

A person who looks around at the people he's socializing with, then apparently immediately grabs a computer, downloads a statistical data set and begins to analyze it in R wonders why he's surrounded by other programmers?

Exactly. As ridiculous as it sounds, that's an act worthy of ostracism in the small town where my wife grew up (and I lived for a while). Living in a small town and working (remotely) in tech was an eye-opening experience. There wasn't another programmer within 100 miles. I learned that not only had I previously surrounded myself with a very homogenous group, but that the way I think and act most of the time simply i…

Nothing wrong with not wanting to hang out or be around stupid people ("average Americans" as you put it). And yes, calling soccer a "Mexican sport", Tesla "something for tree huggers", and wanting a stupid president are exactly what makes one stupid and insufferable. I totally relate to your situation at the time. Unfortunately, it's not limited to small towns.
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