Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests • Hacker News Board

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#131

Post by danielweber » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:02 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #112

jeremyt wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the specific law referenced here is a federal law which only applies to high ranking federal officials (e.g. Cabinet secretaries). It would apply to Clinton, but not to most of the people on your list. "The head of each Federal agency shall make and preserve records containing adequate and proper documentation of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, and essential transactions of the age…

> The only relevant question is, "are emails 'records'?" I don't know, I see other relevant questions. For instance, nothing in the quoted law says anything about how they shall "make and preserve" the records, only what purposes those records must be adequate to serve. So, using private email alone doesn't seem to be a violation, it seems to be something that might be the starting point for an inquiry as to whether…

Undoubtedly emails are records. This has been established in previous scandals from both parties that failed to retain them as required.

In the corporate world, if there were a legal requirement for compliance, the auditor would verify that all work email is going over work servers, and then review the policies in place on those servers. You could technically let a special employee run their own server, but then that server would need to be audited, and the policies in place there reviewed. "Nah, you can trust Joe" wouldn't cut it.

Otherwise the entire point of compliance laws just goes out the window.

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#132

Post by 001sky » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:04 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #112

jeremyt wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the specific law referenced here is a federal law which only applies to high ranking federal officials (e.g. Cabinet secretaries). It would apply to Clinton, but not to most of the people on your list. "The head of each Federal agency shall make and preserve records containing adequate and proper documentation of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, and essential transactions of the age…

> The only relevant question is, "are emails 'records'?" I don't know, I see other relevant questions. For instance, nothing in the quoted law says anything about how they shall "make and preserve" the records, only what purposes those records must be adequate to serve. So, using private email alone doesn't seem to be a violation, it seems to be something that might be the starting point for an inquiry as to whether…

Per WH policy...

"Former secretary of state Hillary Rodham Clinton appears to have operated in violation of what the White House said Tuesday was “very specific guidance” that members of the Obama administration use government e-mail accounts to carry out official business."

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#133

Post by Zigurd » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:09 PM UTC

jeremyt wrote: post #13

mootothemax wrote: post #6

Hilary Clinton's not the first nor only politician guilty of doing this, NY Daily News just put together five other notables: - Sarah Palin - Mitt Romney - Karl Rove - Andrew Cuomo - Chris Christie aide Bridget Anne Kelly http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/5-examples-lawmaker... It definitely seems less than ideal for these rules to be abused like this. The problem is, how do you stop it? It's unreasonable to e…

Well, the specific law referenced here is a federal law which only applies to high ranking federal officials (e.g. Cabinet secretaries). It would apply to Clinton, but not to most of the people on your list. "The head of each Federal agency shall make and preserve records containing adequate and proper documentation of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, and essential transactions of the age…

That can't be the only law that applies. Information derived from classified documents, that should be highly secured, is very likely to have moved through these unofficial channels.

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#134

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

ohjesusthatguy wrote: post #117

Spooky23 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a .gov and have had exposure to this issue directly in a few different contexts. The advocates for full disclosure imo are biting their nose to spite their face. Normal people running everything from little leagues to major corporations use email for strategy development, information delivery, deliberative functions and other normal business processes. Known figures in government cannot do that, because the…

Okay, you're out of your mind. I also work for an organization where FOIA laws mean anything I produce is available to anyone who asks (and knows what to ask for). The purpose of laws like this is to prevent your elected and/or unelected officials from doing things that are detrimental to society. Those "couriers... grey area communications mechanism, or... something else that is lost to the public record"? Yeah, you…

[deleted]

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#135

Post by briandear » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:11 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #120

Wissmania wrote: post #33

How is this supposed to be a scandal exactly? The issue seems to be that she could of hid something in her personal emails by not turning everything over. But couldn't any official have just used their gov email for "official business" and use their personal email for stuff they want to hide? Doesn't every politician actually do this? The fact that Clinton is letting personal correspondence mix with government corres…

This is payback for 2 things - The exposure of Palin's email shenanigans - A continuation of the Benghazi conspiracy They want to keep Benghazi on the radar in case of a potential presidential run, and they're still mad about how easy it was to shatter Palin as a VP candidate, a mistake that is widely believed to have cost them the presidency and locked the U.S. in for 8 years of centrist non-ideologue successes that…

Payback? So this issue is made up? Shouldn't all presidential hopefuls and public officials be subject to the same scrutiny? As far as Palin, there's no Republican that I know that cares one bit about Palin anymore. She's a pundit but she's hardly a front-runner for Republican thought leadership. She's all but irrelevant.

As far as Benghazi, it's a legitimate issue for a Presidential candidate. They claimed a video sparked the attack. That was the official word despite evidence that Hillary knew almost immediately that a video had nothing to do with it. That false narrative whose water was carried by Susan Rice resulted in Rice getting promoted to UN Ambassador. All of this stuff is far more relevant than those stupid stories about Mitt Romney and his family dog.

Look! A squirrel. If Benghazi is a non issue, what was the need for the obfuscation of the truth? Why did the admin insist that YouTube caused the attack? Why not just play it straight? It isn't Benghazi that's the issue; it's the culture of corruption and deceit that voters don't seem to care about.

We should demand better.

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#136

Post by Zigurd » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:17 PM UTC

Wissmania wrote: post #33

How is this supposed to be a scandal exactly? The issue seems to be that she could of hid something in her personal emails by not turning everything over. But couldn't any official have just used their gov email for "official business" and use their personal email for stuff they want to hide? Doesn't every politician actually do this? The fact that Clinton is letting personal correspondence mix with government corres…

> How is this supposed to be a scandal exactly?

Classified information security, for one thing. Exposing highly sensitive information via an infrastructure run by unknown persons, presumably without clearances, or acting against the conditions of their clearances if they have them.

One specific law about document retention is mentioned in connection with this case, but this is also a big security issue, with laws and regulations that apply, as well.

There are probably other ethics, regulatory, and legal issues once you get into who she was corresponding with on what topics and how those people used the information they obtained.

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#137

Post by superuser2 » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:24 PM UTC

loumf wrote: post #34

yincrash wrote: post #21

Why is this news now? Wouldn't everyone she would have corresponded with have known it isn't a government email and raised a flag?

The IT dept would also know that she gets no official email. Normal auditing software alerts on counts to make sure the backup is working.

Yeah, but is some low-level IT guy going to throw away his government career by confronting the United States Secretary of State with an accusation of wrongdoing?

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#138

Post by bane » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #135

bane wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is payback for 2 things - The exposure of Palin's email shenanigans - A continuation of the Benghazi conspiracy They want to keep Benghazi on the radar in case of a potential presidential run, and they're still mad about how easy it was to shatter Palin as a VP candidate, a mistake that is widely believed to have cost them the presidency and locked the U.S. in for 8 years of centrist non-ideologue successes that…

Payback? So this issue is made up? Shouldn't all presidential hopefuls and public officials be subject to the same scrutiny? As far as Palin, there's no Republican that I know that cares one bit about Palin anymore. She's a pundit but she's hardly a front-runner for Republican thought leadership. She's all but irrelevant. As far as Benghazi, it's a legitimate issue for a Presidential candidate. They claimed a video s…

That you for confirming everything I said.

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#139

Post by sanderjd » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #123

sanderjd wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That perspective is absolutely what I'm arguing against, and I believe it is one of the main contributors to exactly the problem it decries. Convincing people that everything is terrible is the first step to convincing them that it's the other side's fault and you have the solution, which is how we end up with the divisiveness that fails to represent the mostly moderate values of the people.

No -- I think you missed my point. Everything is terrible, because there is no other side. Neither party represents my interests adequately, and both parties are sclerotic and resistant to change because of symbiotic relationships with rent-seeking interest groups. What should I do?

I didn't miss your point. The divisiveness that follows from convincing people that everything is terrible isn't just bi-directional, it also divides many people (like you and me) into a helpless feeling "nobody speaks for me" group.

I don't know what you should do, but current my strategy (as you can see) is to call out what I see as unhelpfully hyperbolic rhetoric (both negative and positive, though that's rare these days) when I talk to people and point out good things about our society while not papering over things I'd like to see improved.

There are quite a few axes on which to measure how well things are going, and the adequate representation of your (and my) interests is just one of them. I totally agree the system doesn't do a great job of that, but it does a good job of lots of more important things.

Re: Using Private Email, Hillary Clinton Thwarted Record Requests

#140

Post by jazzyk » Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #29

EdSharkey wrote: post #24

Hillary is the front-runner in the democratic field. And the republicans are putting Jeb Bush forward as "most electable", whatever the hell that means. I suppose the power elites are freaking out right now because neither of those bluebloods should be allowed anywhere near the white house. Will status quo go out the window with the next president, or will we continue with the endless war, bailout, QE, and surveillan…

Oh, definitely more of the same. Until this nation's citizens stop the my party is better than your party BS and actually start paying attention to what these people are doing to our country, we'll never have change.

This. A hundred times!