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A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

quantamagazine.org

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Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#21

Post by eli_gottlieb »

chrisseaton wrote: post #8
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So while the PhD system is deeply flawed, unless he can provide an alternative then there's not much to discuss. Ok, how about a much simpler system of research apprenticeship? An apprentice is paid a low but livable salary, possibly with tuition remission for any necessary coursework, and probably with TA/RA duties as we have now. There are no grades and no qualifying exams. Instead, the apprentice must simply prod…

That's exactly what a PhD already is - a research apprenticeship. They already get a low but liveable salary without having to pay tuition. I don't think many PhDs do TA/RA duties - they're too busy researching. PhD students don't have grades or qualifying exams, and three publishable research papers is what most PhD students achieve anyway. The thesis is just these papers written up into one continuous piece and sub…

Where are you coming from? I've seen two systems for running postgrad degrees, and neither work as you describe.

>They already get a low but liveable salary without having to pay tuition. I don't think many PhDs do TA/RA duties - they're too busy researching.

In most places I've seen, PhD students are the primary source of TA/RA labor. If we're lucky, we get a base stipend and TA/RA adds to it.

>PhD students don't have grades or qualifying exams

I've never seen a PhD program with no coursework, no qualifying exams, and no grade requirements for either. Could you show me where such an arcadian academic track exists?

>and three publishable research papers is what most PhD students achieve anyway

That was my point, yes.

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#22

Post by carbocation »

hessenwolf wrote: post #12
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many famous computer scientists lack PhDs, some of them are professors; this was completely possible in the 70s/80s when a PhD wasn't required (nor were there enough of them). Today it is probably much harder, though I know some really good researchers who only have masters (not even in CS).

Expect a sweep of middle-aged professors doing PhDs with their mates supervising and examining.

The most mathematically capable geneticists I've ever met (he's at Harvard) was in the same position. PhD-less, was doing great work without it, but ultimately got one at the encouragement of his colleagues. This was gilding the lilly, intellectually, but thanks to rules arcana, probably helpful for career advancement.

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#23

Post by carbocation »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17
dagw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many universities have rules limiting pay and promotion opportunities to people without PhDs.

Maybe at the low end, but definitely not at the high end. As long as they can easily get a position at CMU or Stanford, the university isn't going to low ball them on pay.

Crazily, depending on field, it seems to be an issue even at the high end (see my comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9144856 ), though my comment is not specifically about CS.

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#24

Post by chrisseaton »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #21
chrisseaton wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what a PhD already is - a research apprenticeship. They already get a low but liveable salary without having to pay tuition. I don't think many PhDs do TA/RA duties - they're too busy researching. PhD students don't have grades or qualifying exams, and three publishable research papers is what most PhD students achieve anyway. The thesis is just these papers written up into one continuous piece and sub…

Where are you coming from? I've seen two systems for running postgrad degrees, and neither work as you describe. >They already get a low but liveable salary without having to pay tuition. I don't think many PhDs do TA/RA duties - they're too busy researching. In most places I've seen, PhD students are the primary source of TA/RA labor. If we're lucky , we get a base stipend and TA/RA adds to it. >PhD students don't h…

In the UK I think all PhD programmes work as I've described.

To begin my PhD I made contact from cold with a professor who had similar research interests to mine at the University I wanted to go to. We did an informal interview and he offered me the studentship. I didn't go through any kind of central application process, do any entrance exams or write any essays or anything.

When I started my PhD I immediately began working on my own research and writing my own papers. I never did any coursework or exams. My only assessment is a yearly review presentation and then the thesis and viva at the end. I'm not involved in any kind of group project so I'm not working for anyone else as 'cheap labour'.

I get paid by a grant from the government of around $21k a year. That's tax-free so I guess it's maybe the equivalent of $25k. I have done about 50 paid hours of TAing (demonstrating) during three years, but it was optional and I did it just to meet some new masters students really.

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#25

Post by xamuel »

cup wrote: post #3

The problem with his argument is that a certain set of circumstances (i.e. a world war) allowed him to enter his position without the PhD. I'm fairly confident in saying the challenge to become a professor at a respectable university in a stem field without a PhD makes it for all intents and purposes impossible. So while the PhD system is deeply flawed, unless he can provide an alternative then theres not much to dis…

>to become a professor at a respectable university in a stem field without a PhD

This is silly. It's like saying, "to become a programmer at a respectable software company without a computer". Becoming a professor is about doing research. Getting a PhD is about doing research. If you're actually good enough to do the research, the PhD is a formality. Heck, if your research is genuinely groundbreaking, (not just pushing the envelope another predictable inch), surely you can pick and choose which school will fill out the paperwork to give you a degree for it. Certainly, it's by far the least of the STEM job candidate's worries with the current job market.

If you are making the common mistake of confusing "professor" for "lecturer", it's already routine for PhD dropouts to lecture low-level undergrad courses, at least it was at my school.

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#27

Post by arca_vorago »

What I think this boils down to is our cultures unhealthy focus on authority. One of my favorite classes I took at uni was advanced English rhetoric, and the teacher explained that overall most people tend to have a handful of mechanisms with which they establish their credibility with the reader, in particular with establishment of authority. "I have my Ph.D in X, therefore I am knowledge about subject X."

The problem is that I see this taken to the extreme in all kinds of arguments, to the point that I would almost rather not know anything about the author or his/her authority because it colors my judgement of the material itself. Give me your facts and data and opinions and let me evaluate them for myself without having to rest on your laurels.

This also applies to government and diplomatic, and high level business actions. Currently the modus operandi seems to be that people in power say, "I've been in this industry for Y years, and have worked with P, I'm the expert and you should listen to me. Oh and all this has to be done in secret, because the public wouldn't understand it anyway."

I call bullshit on that constantly. Honestly, just try it, the next time you read a published scientific paper or any material of any weight or note, keep an eye on how much time and space is wasted on people establishing their "authority".

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#28

Post by jimrandomh »

"Oh, yes. I’m very proud of not having a Ph.D. I think the Ph.D. system is an abomination. It was invented as a system for educating German professors in the 19th century, and it works well under those conditions. It’s good for a very small number of people who are going to spend their lives being professors. But it has become now a kind of union card that you have to have in order to have a job, whether it’s being a professor or other things, and it’s quite inappropriate for that. It forces people to waste years and years of their lives sort of pretending to do research for which they’re not at all well-suited. In the end, they have this piece of paper which says they’re qualified, but it really doesn’t mean anything. The Ph.D. takes far too long and discourages women from becoming scientists, which I consider a great tragedy. So I have opposed it all my life without any success at all."

I completely agree. And I would add that it's a filter that selects status-seekers over truth-seekers, who have no reason to tolerate it.

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#29

Post by eli_gottlieb »

chrisseaton wrote: post #24
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you coming from? I've seen two systems for running postgrad degrees, and neither work as you describe. >They already get a low but liveable salary without having to pay tuition. I don't think many PhDs do TA/RA duties - they're too busy researching. In most places I've seen, PhD students are the primary source of TA/RA labor. If we're lucky , we get a base stipend and TA/RA adds to it. >PhD students don't h…

In the UK I think all PhD programmes work as I've described. To begin my PhD I made contact from cold with a professor who had similar research interests to mine at the University I wanted to go to. We did an informal interview and he offered me the studentship. I didn't go through any kind of central application process, do any entrance exams or write any essays or anything. When I started my PhD I immediately began…

Wow... that's awesome. That's quite different from how I've seen it done in other places. I wish I could get that much freedom from a studentship!

Re: A ‘Rebel’ Without a Ph.D (2014)

#30

Post by noobiemcfoob »

arca_vorago wrote: post #27

What I think this boils down to is our cultures unhealthy focus on authority. One of my favorite classes I took at uni was advanced English rhetoric, and the teacher explained that overall most people tend to have a handful of mechanisms with which they establish their credibility with the reader, in particular with establishment of authority. "I have my Ph.D in X, therefore I am knowledge about subject X." The probl…

The problem though is that if you eliminate the markers of credentials any field of information gets flooded with many people who don't have the requisite knowledge to be talking about said field in the first place. While you could make the argument that any investigation into this bogus research would reveal that the person is unreliable, in reality, doing such an investigation is incredibly time consuming. It's much more efficient to take a Ph.D or any other specific credential as a filter and make the general assumption that someone with that credential is more likely to be correct and have valid research.

Yeah, that assumption can and has been way wrong in the past, but I would argue that the valid/invalid ratio compared against the time needed to fully investigate every bit of research any person puts out is much preferred.

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