Live data from Hacker News

While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

pando.com

21–30 of 32 posts

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#21
I stopped by the indie.vc meetup in Portland to discuss this, and found the idea fascinating. I strongly believe that it's going to fill a missing piece in modern startup investment, and could end up being a very important program in the future, because frankly, it's a better fit for most startups.

I'm not saying there's no place for VC, but I think it's been a big mistake to plug it into ideas that simply don't make sense for it. There's a reason my copy of "Nothing Ventured" has a pair of dice on the cover. VC is designed for high-risk high-capital projects (the Intels and Lyfts of the world), and yet we continue to use it for things it was never designed for, like low-capital web startups that don't really require a lot of labor and simply need to find a niche in their market (let's face it, it's almost impossible to predict your market beforehand).

The consequence is startups that are either an enormous success or a complete failure, with zero room for deviance. There's a big hole between enormous success and complete failure, and in practice the vast majority of startups land in it. When we don't provide investment devices that work for that middle area (but scale to potential for enormous success when discovered), it's no surprise to me that we assume 90% failure rates in the industry, and end up with startups that fly way off the handle, sacrificing sustainability at the altar of "growth".

The Indie.vc proposal IMHO fills that massive hole by allowing for the possibility of moderate success. If your company doesn't go IPO but still makes a profit, you don't get stuck in a trap where you're forced to keep raising money to prevent disaster (which you're dishonestly selling as a growth opportunity), sell (often an acqui-hire that shuts down a perfectly good business) or go into an asset sale to pay off the investors. Running on that treadmill destroys a lot of perfectly good companies.

Neocities is in this boat. We've turned down quite a few offers from VCs because the terms were too dangerous for us, and I'm assuming many other startups are in a similar place. We need some investment and help to grow, but I refuse to do that at the expense of our great users. They deserve better than to lose their sites because I used them as poker chips to gamble the size of our market niche. If we get big, great, but moderate success is great too. Today's investment devices are simply too dangerous.

IMHO, that's the way startups should operate, and that's the way our investment devices should work. Indie.vc is a really great idea.

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#22
post #8

To be honest I thought it was going to be a joke. It's actually interesting as an experiment, but they need bigger N to find out if it can possibly work. 50-100 would be more reasonable. Tho maybe it's good to start with 8, it might be impossible to even find 8 reasonable people willing to take this deal. Anyways I doubt it's going to work. They're competing with banks at this point. But their per-company [management…

In part I have thought about Indie.vc as an option more for the connections to the people, and a bank wouldn't care for investing in us at this point, however people who understand internet business models more likely would.

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#23
post #13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[edit: seems they're not doing revenue based financing.] "Nowhere in anything we’ve written publicly or discussed privately about indie.vc have we said we’re only interested in modest, cashflow businesses." If they're not aiming for modest wins, then why wouldn't the startups be reinvesting as much revenue as possible back into further growth, instead of using it to immediately repay this loan? Eating up 80% of reven…

There is no timeframe on repayment of the loan. If founders want to keep reinvesting in the business that is fantastic. If they want to start taking more out for themselves, that's when the distributions kick in. We hope that helps keep our incentives aligned.

I see, thank you for clarifying. Somehow, I think the word "cash flow" gave me the impression that this was based on revenues, not distributions.

Can you clarify what distributions means? So if the founders pay themselves a salary, that counts as distributions?

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#24
post #15
post #4

The interesting thing about new financial instruments is to try to figure out the risks for all parties involved. What I'm not really getting here is that from the perspective of the company, this is like a loan with a really high interest rate and other harsh terms like the equity conversion, in exchange for no recourse. If a company had growing cashflow couldn't they just use debt financing at much better terms? An…

That's all part of the experiment. Given the only forcing function for distributions is tied to founder salary, there is no reason founders couldn't simply keep investing in, and growing their business, for years without ever making a distribution. And we'd be thrilled for that as an outcome.

Can you give more details on how distributions are tied to founder salary? If salary is above X distributions to indie.vc need to be Y.

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#25
post #20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be happier if there was a way to pay back early, say to reduce end cost to 3x return, in the case that you bring in investment.

our assumption is that we'd need to wave our rights to distributions should an equity financing come together.

Remainder converts to equity somehow then?

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#26
post #8

To be honest I thought it was going to be a joke. It's actually interesting as an experiment, but they need bigger N to find out if it can possibly work. 50-100 would be more reasonable. Tho maybe it's good to start with 8, it might be impossible to even find 8 reasonable people willing to take this deal. Anyways I doubt it's going to work. They're competing with banks at this point. But their per-company [management…

Banks are dumb money (no support), and if you don't pay them back bad things happen. They're great for conservative investments, not for riskier ones.

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's all part of the experiment. Given the only forcing function for distributions is tied to founder salary, there is no reason founders couldn't simply keep investing in, and growing their business, for years without ever making a distribution. And we'd be thrilled for that as an outcome.

Can you give more details on how distributions are tied to founder salary? If salary is above X distributions to indie.vc need to be Y.

Let's try this an example.

Say at the time of funding founders are paying themselves $100k salaries each. They can pay themselves up to $150k each (150% salary at time of funding or a market salary we establish with them at the time of funding if they're paying themselves way below market).

If they chose to start taking out more cash than $150k, that would be considered a distribution and the 80/20 would kick in until 2x our investment is returned. Then it flips to 20/80 until 5x is returned. Once 5x is returned there are no further distributions.

That said, they can continue to draw their $150k salary and reinvest in the business as long as they'd like without ever paying out a distribution.

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#28
post #25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

our assumption is that we'd need to wave our rights to distributions should an equity financing come together.

Remainder converts to equity somehow then?

we convert at the pre-determined equity amount.

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#29
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give more details on how distributions are tied to founder salary? If salary is above X distributions to indie.vc need to be Y.

Let's try this an example. Say at the time of funding founders are paying themselves $100k salaries each. They can pay themselves up to $150k each (150% salary at time of funding or a market salary we establish with them at the time of funding if they're paying themselves way below market). If they chose to start taking out more cash than $150k, that would be considered a distribution and the 80/20 would kick in unti…

Bryce, This seems very interesting. I have been working on a Neural Network SaaS startup for awhile now, and I think my plans could align with this program. I just wanted to say thanks to you and OATV for trying this experiment. I think traditional VC's miss out on lots of opportunities where there is some consulting revenue early on in the company lifecycle to help build the business. I have high hopes that INDIC.vc and programs like it could help those sorts of businesses get going.

Re: While other VCs seek Unicorns, Indie.vc is all about cashflow

#30
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's try this an example. Say at the time of funding founders are paying themselves $100k salaries each. They can pay themselves up to $150k each (150% salary at time of funding or a market salary we establish with them at the time of funding if they're paying themselves way below market). If they chose to start taking out more cash than $150k, that would be considered a distribution and the 80/20 would kick in unti…

Bryce, This seems very interesting. I have been working on a Neural Network SaaS startup for awhile now, and I think my plans could align with this program. I just wanted to say thanks to you and OATV for trying this experiment. I think traditional VC's miss out on lots of opportunities where there is some consulting revenue early on in the company lifecycle to help build the business. I have high hopes that INDIC.vc…

thanks for the encouraging words.
Post reply on HN