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Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

reuters.com

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Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#51

Post by dragonwriter »

kailuowang wrote: post #45
SeanDav wrote: post #23

China is only trying to be upfront and public about things the US and Western countries have been doing in private for years. That is not to say I approve, (I do not) but my respect for Chinese authorities just went up a notch. The good thing about this is that it brings debate far more into the open and shines a light on some very shady policies.

The Chinese government never never really care about counter terrorism, all they care about is keeping their power. To keep their power they need to control their people's mind, to control people's mind they need to control the internet. That's it. It's not about privacy, it's about free speech. Please do not confuse this with the debate (about privacy) happening in the western countries.

The debate about online privacy vs. the government in the West is largely about free speech vs. governments exercising total control to maintain power, so I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to make.

I'm not saying that there isn't a very large difference in the current state of China vs. the West in this area, but the subject is the same.

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#52

Post by dragonwriter »

jMyles wrote: post #13
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, are Obama and W much worse than Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Rossevelt? The US will keep using up the last of its credibility year after year, and of course that just means it isn't.

I'll bite. Yes, in terms of foreign policy, I think that W and especially Obama have been profoundly, historically, difficult-to-believe bad. I'm not trying to downplay Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin / Vietnam, etc., but the last two administrations have taken what was unduly hostile (and expensive) logistical capability around the world and turned it into Empire. The needs, wants, representative processes, laws, and so…

> but the last two administrations have taken what was unduly hostile (and expensive) logistical capability around the world and turned it into Empire.

The US has been, and acted as, a global empire from the end of WWII, and a basically unrivaled one since the fall of the USSR. It is certainly not either of the most recent two administrations that did that.

> Obama has attacked no less than seven different countries in undeclared wars.

I suspect you are mistakenly applying a "magic words" standard to Congress' Article I power to declare war, but if you don't identify which specific instances you are talking about, I can't really tell how much that explains.

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#53

Post by gonvaled »

dragonwriter wrote: post #51
kailuowang wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese government never never really care about counter terrorism, all they care about is keeping their power. To keep their power they need to control their people's mind, to control people's mind they need to control the internet. That's it. It's not about privacy, it's about free speech. Please do not confuse this with the debate (about privacy) happening in the western countries.

The debate about online privacy vs. the government in the West is largely about free speech vs. governments exercising total control to maintain power, so I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to make. I'm not saying that there isn't a very large difference in the current state of China vs. the West in this area, but the subject is the same.

Well, you should be saying that there isn't a very large difference. Or maybe there is, but in the opposite way that you are suggesting. The US has the same motivation (proven by the leaks and media reports) of spying on people. More, they are willing to spy on the whole world population (as much as they can get), which the Chinese have little interest in doing it seems. And they have, much more than the Chinese:

- the technical capabilities to implement those policies

- the global presence to interfere in all communications worldwide

- the political influence to force it in lots of places

- the money to implement those policies

Of all that, the Chinese can only dream. The only thing the Chinese have is a huge market that western companies want to tap, and that is what the Chinese government wants to use to get a foothold into your routers.

But, in comparison to what the US wants and can do, this is peanuts.

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#54

Post by arethuza »

happyscrappy wrote: post #44
arethuza wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there was Operation Eagle Claw to try and rescue the US hostages in Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw

Carter is the canonical example of why you cannot appear soft on foreign policy.

Also the Missile Gap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#55

Post by dredmorbius »

arethuza wrote: post #36
dredmorbius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's the only U.S. President in a long time to have no US troops deployed in combat, as I recall. Definitely since WWII, possibly WWI or earlier.

Well, there was Operation Eagle Claw to try and rescue the US hostages in Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw

Not deployed in combat (or at least didn't reach the stage of combat).

The mission itself was a failure.

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#56

Post by lgp171188 »

Classic case of pot calling the kettle black. Perhaps they consider themselves to beyond all the rules like they are in their own country. Given the standards they have set for themselves, they have to expect and deal with other countries trying to do the same.

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#57

Post by johndevor »

balabaster wrote: post #48

I laugh at the blatant double standards held by the U.S. government here. They want to do exactly the same thing in the U.S. with all companies, yet they criticize China for wanting to do the same thing there? You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want China to drop that policy, then you have to be willing to drop that policy too.

Yeah, and at least China is honest about their snooping. It's tiring hearing the company line here in the US about how we are so great with personal liberties.

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#58

Post by balabaster »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #6

It only took two people (Manning and Snowden) to remove any remaining credibility left in US foreign policy. You almost have to feel embarrassed for Obama and co.

Actually, it's not Obama and Co. you should feel embarrassed for, it's the entire political establishment in the U.S. you should feel embarrassed about. This has been going on for years, it's just that it was all finally revealed to the public on Obama's watch. I applaud Snowden and Manning for their contributions to getting the truth out there, truly... but I don't blame Obama. If Snowden had gotten there sooner, it would've come out under Bush. If it had taken longer, it would've come out under the next president. You can't blame the current president for all the wrongs in your country, he didn't create most of them. He didn't set the ball rolling, he's really just playing with the cards he was dealt... and sure, he may suck as a president but he's not entirely to blame for your country's political woes.

Let's remember, there were people who were so upset with American foreign policy that in 2001 they were willing take a ridiculous amount of risk to stage a massive terrorist attack on U.S. soil. 8 years before Obama became president... on W's watch. But W. wasn't president until January 20, 2001, I would wager such an attack took far longer to plan than the 7 months and 22 days that Bush Jr. had been president. So it wasn't retaliation for anything he did either.

I'd like to believe that people don't just stage terrorist attacks for no reason. People [I really hope... I have to believe] are mostly good. When treated with respect and dignity, they don't just stage terrorist attacks on other nations.

That had nothing to do with Obama's foreign policy... you could perhaps argue it had little to do with W's... except that he's the son of Bush Sr. (so some influence there). The war on terror began on W's watch... but realistically it was his father who started shipping American troops en-masse to the middle east shortly before the Gulf War. If you recall, at the time, everyone was concerned that Bush Sr. was going to start another Vietnam... on the Middle East... which has now been turned into this Islam vs. the U.S. mess. [I would definitely be worried about what will happen if Jeb Bush becomes the 45th President of the United States - unless he wants his legacy to be coming in and cleaning up the rest of his family's mess.]

So should you feel embarrassed for Obama? I don't think so. He's not done much worse than his predecessors. He's just failed to clean up the mess he was left with. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure there's a single living person who could clean up the mess that is the U.S. political system without getting themselves assassinated in the process.

I wish along with what he uncovered, Snowden had uncovered who really killed Kennedy - or at least, who planned/commissioned it... and what really happened in Roswell? I mean, I'd really like to know are they telling the truth or not? If not, what really went on there? Is there a conspiracy? Was it covered up? Are all the people written off as crazy actually telling the truth? Having this constant is it true isn't it true is tedious. The evidence of conspiracy is sketchy at best, fabricated at worst, yet there is so much passion behind these "conspiracies" you have to wonder, is there any truth whatsoever to those fighting for them?

Given everything recently that shows there has been this conspiracy to spy on the masses that reaches to the very highest levels of government - you have to wonder, what else don't we know yet? You have to wonder, what has still yet to come to light?

Re: Obama sharply criticizes China's plans for new technology rules

#59

Post by balabaster »

johndevor wrote: post #57
balabaster wrote: post #48

I laugh at the blatant double standards held by the U.S. government here. They want to do exactly the same thing in the U.S. with all companies, yet they criticize China for wanting to do the same thing there? You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want China to drop that policy, then you have to be willing to drop that policy too.

Yeah, and at least China is honest about their snooping. It's tiring hearing the company line here in the US about how we are so great with personal liberties.

...and they've become a going concern for anyone who has anything to do with U.S. corporations. Even if it's not been said, people are quietly pulling their data onto their own servers, outside of U.S. jurisdiction and encrypting the crap out of everything. It's a matter of national security. You cannot have another nation spying on your citizens. If you allow that to happen on your watch, you're signing the end of your political career.
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