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Computing is too easy

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Re: Computing is too easy

#21

Post by GeneralMayhem »

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, as a developer, it frustrates the hell out of me when people don't have the slightest idea how computers work on the level of the "just write a program that writes programs" point from the article. On the other hand, I don't know how a car works in any sort of detail, and I'm sure mechanics feel the same about me.

I (like to) think the difference is that I have some idea how to reason about cars, because I am at least familiar with the basic laws of physics and get the idea of internal combustion. The "it should just work" crowd aren't just incompetent as creators, they're incompetent as users, because there's no basis for reasoning.

Re: Computing is too easy

#22

Post by PakG1 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #15
scotty79 wrote: post #2

> Our laptops are sleek and polished. Our operating systems are fluid and intuitive. This is clearly a joke. And a cruel one. Laptops are just two steps away from overheating and falling apart no matter how much glue they put in these days. And operating systems are laggy and messy. They have still 50% of laggines and 90% of messiness of what was the standard two decades ago.

You are viewing the world through rose-tinted glasses if you think OSes were better twenty years ago.

OSes were better twenty years ago because they were more predictable and stable because they couldn't do as much, especially if there was no multithreading. Limitations ensured stability and reliable performance. Today, it's too easy to overload your system.

Except now I just realized that 20 years ago was Windows 95. Dang, I'm getting old. :(

Re: Computing is too easy

#23

Post by jeremysmyth »

philbarr wrote: post #16
jeremysmyth wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things might not be possible to fix. Teaching people to RTFM, for instance. No search engine will be able to replace consistent and comprehensive documentation written by the people who know the system intimately, but it's hard to convince most users, many developers, even, that this is actually worth the effort it takes, both to read and write." This is compounded by the trend toward instant gratification in pr…

The problem is: there's too many manuals. We don't have time to read them all. In fact, I think one of the skills you learn as you gain experience in software development is choosing your moments. When you can just google it, and when you need to get a cup of coffee and RTFM.

...which suggests that computing is not too easy at all, as per grandparent comment.

See also http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.htm... :

During my first Microsoft internship, I wrote string libraries to run on the Macintosh... Everything I did was right from K&R -- one thin book about the C programming language.

Today, to work on CityDesk, I need to know Visual Basic, COM, ATL, C++, InnoSetup, Internet Explorer internals, regular expressions, DOM, HTML, CSS, and XML. All high level tools compared to the old K&R stuff, but I still have to know the K&R stuff or I'm toast.

Re: Computing is too easy

#24

Post by 300bps »

prof_hobart wrote: post #18
300bps wrote: post #12

I agree with the article. The differences between 10 year old me on my Commodore 64 and my currently 10 year old son on his Windows 7 computer are astronomical. When I turned my 64 on it was "READY" for me to make it do something. I spent days typing in BASIC and 6502 Assembly source code into it just to play a game. My son has a seemingly infinite supply of videos on YouTube to entertain him. Near infinite supply of…

There are many more distractions these days, but I'm not sure that it's as clear cut as you suggest. It's really not that hard to get kids into some form of coding today. I've run a Scratch[1] club for 8-10 year olds at my daughter's school and every single one of the kids there loved it. By the end of the first hour, they were all producing some form of animation that they could control and all were desperate to com…

Your point is solid, but your experience with Scratch is different than mine. My 10 year old son had very little interest in Scratch. I'm not entirely sure of the reason for this but I think it is related to:

1) It was hard to distribute his creations

2) Lack of natural aptitude / ability

3) Too easy to consume without producing

We had a little more success with Construct 2. The main difference being that the games could be distributed to an iPad or any other HTML 5 web browser effortlessly. Maybe Scratch addressed that already in the 18 months since we've used it?

Re: Computing is too easy

#25

Post by Gracana »

jimmaswell wrote: post #19
prottmann wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"fluid and intuitive" I must laugh at this too. I need a search tool to find my installed programs and settings. Most of the time i need google to find out, if a changeable setting exists ;) Operating systems are stupid since many years, on every new Version i think "god, please change not too much", cause on every new Version things not getting better and not easier and not smoother. Yes, they look nicer, they have…

>I need a search tool to find my installed programs and settings. as if simply typing the name of or keywords for what you want to find into a search bar isn't fluid and inuitive?

Assuming that you know the name of your volume manager is "gigolo" and that your remote desktop client is "remmina," etc. If you're lucky the program might have a reasonable name, but still your OS decides the most likely thing you're looking for is ancient manuscripts... http://i.imgur.com/0ePB9sT.png

Re: Computing is too easy

#26

Post by prottmann »

jimmaswell wrote: post #19
prottmann wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"fluid and intuitive" I must laugh at this too. I need a search tool to find my installed programs and settings. Most of the time i need google to find out, if a changeable setting exists ;) Operating systems are stupid since many years, on every new Version i think "god, please change not too much", cause on every new Version things not getting better and not easier and not smoother. Yes, they look nicer, they have…

>I need a search tool to find my installed programs and settings. as if simply typing the name of or keywords for what you want to find into a search bar isn't fluid and inuitive?

And if you not know the exactly name?

Example i type "browser" -> nothing found. And i am absolutely sure i have installed chrome, seamonkey and ie. ;)

Re: Computing is too easy

#27

Post by pjc50 »

EliRivers wrote: post #11
pjc50 wrote: post #7

There's one of these articles every few weeks. I'd argue that the response has been the "maker" movement, built around Arduino and Raspberry Pi. People also need to distinguish between "you have to tinker in order to use the thing" and "you can tinker if you need to". Old cars were more tinkerable and less reliable.

Old cars were more tinkerable and less reliable. Reliability is a curve; a function of how much maintenance is spent on it. No question at all that a modern car with zero maintenance will be more reliable than an old car was with zero maintenance. But with a surprisingly small amount of maintenance, an old can can be more reliable than a modern car with the same amount of maintenance. Sure, it'll take a while before…

For certain cars, yes; there are plenty around that have been round their odometers a few times. But we've forgotten the higher proportion of cars that were lemons straight from the factory or suffered early rust or electrical failures (this may be a more British thing).

Re: Computing is too easy

#28

Post by klez »

300bps wrote: post #24
prof_hobart wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many more distractions these days, but I'm not sure that it's as clear cut as you suggest. It's really not that hard to get kids into some form of coding today. I've run a Scratch[1] club for 8-10 year olds at my daughter's school and every single one of the kids there loved it. By the end of the first hour, they were all producing some form of animation that they could control and all were desperate to com…

Your point is solid, but your experience with Scratch is different than mine. My 10 year old son had very little interest in Scratch. I'm not entirely sure of the reason for this but I think it is related to: 1) It was hard to distribute his creations 2) Lack of natural aptitude / ability 3) Too easy to consume without producing We had a little more success with Construct 2. The main difference being that the games c…

May I suggest that you're starting from the premise that your kid is willing/able to learn programming and that programming is for everyone?

As your parent suggested, not everyone who had computers back than had or felt the need to program them.

Re: Computing is too easy

#29

Post by dagw »

EliRivers wrote: post #11
pjc50 wrote: post #7

There's one of these articles every few weeks. I'd argue that the response has been the "maker" movement, built around Arduino and Raspberry Pi. People also need to distinguish between "you have to tinker in order to use the thing" and "you can tinker if you need to". Old cars were more tinkerable and less reliable.

Old cars were more tinkerable and less reliable. Reliability is a curve; a function of how much maintenance is spent on it. No question at all that a modern car with zero maintenance will be more reliable than an old car was with zero maintenance. But with a surprisingly small amount of maintenance, an old can can be more reliable than a modern car with the same amount of maintenance. Sure, it'll take a while before…

I think you are looking at a strong case of survivorship bias. The sample of 30 year old cars that still work represent some of the best made and most reliable cars made 30 years ago. Most of the unreliable and badly made cars from 30 years ago have died and been turned to scrap.

Re: Computing is too easy

#30

Post by donatj »

300bps wrote: post #12

I agree with the article. The differences between 10 year old me on my Commodore 64 and my currently 10 year old son on his Windows 7 computer are astronomical. When I turned my 64 on it was "READY" for me to make it do something. I spent days typing in BASIC and 6502 Assembly source code into it just to play a game. My son has a seemingly infinite supply of videos on YouTube to entertain him. Near infinite supply of…

I think about this a lot, there are a lot of distractions now days but when I am actually being productive I'm working on distractions for others. Sometimes I wonder if that's all computers are is a massive distraction?
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