Live data from Hacker News

How We Learned to Kill

nytimes.com

131–140 of 154 posts

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#131
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially if they'd rather violently impose Sharia through a worldwide caliphate, to use one contemporary example. What a weird example. ISIS wouldn't exist today if it weren't for the US destroying Iraq as a regional power.

But maybe something else would. You don't know that. And there were and are people who want to impose Sharia violently even without ISIS.

Since we're playing the "you don't know that" game, you don't know that it wouldn't have gone the other way. Maybe the Arab Spring might have taken hold in Iraq. Maybe the UN might have found a better diplomatic solution if the US hadn't pre-empted them by invading.

One of the criticisms against the US invading was that the US had no plan for what to do after the military victory, and that Hussein was a stabilising power in the region; remove him and chaos would ensue if things weren't handled carefully.

And there were and are people who want to impose Sharia violently

And instead they got people who wanted to impose Freedom(tm) violently... quite violently. I wonder if it matters to the average Kurd if their loved ones get beheaded, gassed, or "collateral damage"'d.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#132
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially if they'd rather violently impose Sharia through a worldwide caliphate, to use one contemporary example. What a weird example. ISIS wouldn't exist today if it weren't for the US destroying Iraq as a regional power.

But maybe something else would. You don't know that. And there were and are people who want to impose Sharia violently even without ISIS.

I wanted to write something about the country, that in many ways forgot the true meaning of word freedom... but then I realized you're probably just trolling, aren't you :)

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#133
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a mix of loyalty to my Marines, habit and the urge to survive" I think that is mostly a cliché too though. People stay in bad situations because uncertainty is even harder to deal with. The military generally go out of their way to make any other alternative "uncomfortable". If you're ready to sign away your freedom for glory, you should also be ready to do so for justice.

> I think that is mostly a cliché too though. It is not, not in the infantry at least, where brain wa... er - psychological conditioning is the strongest. For example: just days after my battalion got back from a fairly taxing deployment, the company commander informed us at morning formation that an artillery battalion was preparing to deploy to the area of operations we just got back from. It was part of some pilot…

That's a bastardisation of loyalty though. Yes, people volunteer, because they are expected to.

What about speaking up about a situation that is going to get people killed? What about the people who didn't volunteer, where they fine with the whole thing as long as they weren't affected? Is the commander visiting his guys after years and year when they are dealing with PTSD?

The military selectively decides what part of these virtues that are valued. That's why I'm saying it's a cliché and I think it's a major contributor to "fucking people up".

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#134
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you volunteer as a soldier to be deployed to a war zone and kill people (or directly support other soldiers killing), you have a special moral responsibility for what happens during a war. and to do what their nation thought necessary and just. The US did not think that invading Iraq was 'just'. Iraq was a defeatable foe, and the war in Afghanistan wasn't producing results. There was nothing 'just' about the inv…

> When you volunteer ... you have a special moral responsibility for what happens during a war. A responsibility for your actions, or everything that happens during the war? What if your voluntary enlistment was due to false information, or steady conditioning by the state since childhood? Does intent play no role? Do you extend that line of thinking to the justice system where manslaughter and murder are treated dif…

How about not reelecting a president to a second term when he started the war in the first term?

The reality is that had the opinion polls indicated that he would be resoundingly removed from office, he would never have gone in. He needed permission from a group of people who value re-election above almost all else. As he himself did. Even in the middle of a 4 year term the people have the power - the problem is that they approved.

To imply that the war was against the conscience of the majority of (voting) Americans is a falsehood. They were consulted, and their response sealed the national decision. As such the soldiers were respecting their oaths and their country.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#135
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't know where you got your information, but it wasn't from any experience with military." I spent 15 months of conscription in one of those "small team, heavy backpack, green beret"-type units. A sniper operates as part of a self-sustaining team to take down high value targets, often trough infiltration. It's self explanatory why a real sniper wouldn't ask for permission nor why no one would ever, despite what…

Is there any military that is known for being competent?

It's relative, but yes. Spend some time with people who served under the UN and you'll hear all about it.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#136
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very hard to do if the other side won't agree to sing campfire songs with us too. Especially if they'd rather violently impose Sharia through a worldwide caliphate, to use one contemporary example. Gotta pay the Dhimmi before we can forgive and flourish. Yes, there are a lot of reasonable people on the other side of the line. But the leadership of those reasonable people can, depending on who you're talking abou…

Especially if they'd rather violently impose Sharia through a worldwide caliphate, to use one contemporary example. What a weird example. ISIS wouldn't exist today if it weren't for the US destroying Iraq as a regional power.

The desire to set up a worldwide caliphate by violence is an idea that goes clear back to the Koran. Its implementors come and go. ISIS is the latest. There will be others.

Anyway, it's just one example. Could have said the same thing about the Jonestowners -- lots of people wanted to leave but the leadership was fanatical and could not be reasoned with. Like Boko Haram. Or Al Shabaab. Don't have to reach very far in history to find such a thing.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#137
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the fascinating things to come out of the widespread distribution of non-lethal weapons to police has been two effects: 1 - police are more likely to use non-lethal weapons, even in cases where no weapon at all would work fine, because the long-term consequences of using a non-lethal are minimal 2 - in cases where people do die due to being attacked by a non-lethal weapon, there's generally quite a bit of mora…

There's a difference between an army and a police force. Police are there to enforce the law and neutralize criminals. Generally speaking, the police don't want to kill anyone. They want to capture the suspect and move on. Back in the day, non-lethal force meant beating the guy with a big stick, but liability became an issue. So now we pull guns on dumb kids, and a jumpy cop results in a dead dum kid instead of a bro…

Well yeah, but there's a powerful argument that militaries have been increasingly acting as over-amped global police forces. Part of this is a growing queasiness with war, like the OP, who don't understand what it is. It's why we use precision munitions and snipers instead of just firebombing cities. It's why we go door to door to "detain" people instead of just shelling the house.

The next logical step, and the one the military is very actively pursuing, is nonlethals.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#138
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that is mostly a cliché too though. It is not, not in the infantry at least, where brain wa... er - psychological conditioning is the strongest. For example: just days after my battalion got back from a fairly taxing deployment, the company commander informed us at morning formation that an artillery battalion was preparing to deploy to the area of operations we just got back from. It was part of some pilot…

That's a bastardisation of loyalty though. Yes, people volunteer, because they are expected to. What about speaking up about a situation that is going to get people killed? What about the people who didn't volunteer, where they fine with the whole thing as long as they weren't affected? Is the commander visiting his guys after years and year when they are dealing with PTSD? The military selectively decides what part…

> That's a bastardisation of loyalty though. Yes, people volunteer, because they are expected to.

It is pretty clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. You know that you can dislike people in general, but still recognize positive qualities right? Here is another example: Sergeant Major Bradley Kasal. This guy used his own body as a bullet stop to protect his Marines, nobody expects that.

> What about speaking up about a situation that is going to get people killed?

There was a lot of that, we got it shut down at the eleventh hour.

> What about the people who didn't volunteer, where they fine with the whole thing as long as they weren't affected?

I didn't poll everybody, but I'm pretty confident in saying that nobody was fine with the situation. At lot of those guys were pretty torn between loyalty to their families, the guys that they'd just been in combat with and their fellow Marines in the artillery battalion. There were many private conversation had were they tried to talk volunteers out of it, and more than one anonymous letter to a General.

> Is the commander visiting his guys after years and year when they are dealing with PTSD?

Do you think that is practical? In their careers they will have commanded thousands of men. There is a strong bond though, for example: another personal story :) When I got out of the Corps I drove all the way across the country, for a job in DC. After a few days of searching, I found a basement apartment for rent - the landlord lived upstairs with his wife and toddler daughter. Purely by chance, the landlord was a Colonel in the USMC, and he instantly treated me like an old family friend - standing invitation to dinner, long conversation on the porch, etc. The wife was not a big fan of this, and I'm pretty sure my new buddy was constantly catching hell for it. Until one day, several months later, when I came home from work and found the front door wide open and heard panicked footsteps inside. Now this was in pretty much the worst part of DC, and I could have easily just made my way to my private entrance and ignored the possibility that the landlord was getting burgled. Instead, I began clearing the house room by room - armed with a paring knife from the kitchen. I gave the cleaning lady quite a shock, she had forgotten the alarm code and was rushing around trying to find it. I was sure that I'd get the boot for that, but instead I got a dinner invitation from the wife. The cleaning lady informed her of what happened, and it suddenly clicked for her - I was family.

> The military selectively decides what part of these virtues that are valued.

Again, spoken like somebody who has no idea what they're talking about. Outside of the philosophy department in college, I've never seen an organization focus as much on morality as the USMC. Of course, the perspective is that of the state. So any flaws you find in the logic of military morality will be rooted in the state, not the military.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#139
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some research shows that we live in an unusually non-violent time period. "Violence has been in decline over long stretches of time", says Harvard professor Steven Pinker, "and we may be living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence" There are a bunch of nice graphs showing this here: http://ourworldindata.org/VisualHistoryOf/Violence.html#/tit...

If that's true, I'd mark the start date for such a period at the end of the Cultural Revolution. List of conflicts with over 1 million deaths: 1850-1864 Taiping Rebellion: 20 million deaths. 1914-1918 World War 1: 37 million deaths. 1917-1922 Russian Civil war: 9 million deaths. 1928-1936 Chinese Civil War: 2 million deaths 1937-1945 Second Sino-Japanese War: ~25 million deaths. 1939-1945 World War 2: 60 million deat…

Looking at those numbers, I hadn't realised that from the Chinese civil war [1928] to the Korean War [1953], which is nearly a historical continuum, adds up to nearly 100 million deaths.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bastardisation of loyalty though. Yes, people volunteer, because they are expected to. What about speaking up about a situation that is going to get people killed? What about the people who didn't volunteer, where they fine with the whole thing as long as they weren't affected? Is the commander visiting his guys after years and year when they are dealing with PTSD? The military selectively decides what part…

> That's a bastardisation of loyalty though. Yes, people volunteer, because they are expected to. It is pretty clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. You know that you can dislike people in general, but still recognize positive qualities right? Here is another example: Sergeant Major Bradley Kasal. This guy used his own body as a bullet stop to protect his Marines, nobody expects that. > What about sp…

"It is pretty clear that you have no idea what you're talking about."

That's no way to have a discussion. You clearly didn't either read or understand my previous comment. You should probably stick to speaking to your loyal colleges who has everything figured out.

Post reply on HN