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How We Learned to Kill

nytimes.com

71–80 of 154 posts

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be uber cool. Unfortunately, we don't have any that rival the effectiveness of lethal ones, thus if one were to use stun weaponry, one would lose to an enemy that decided not to.

To add on to that the complexity of developing such weapons grows considerably when you take into account the uniqueness of each target - various resistances, adrenaline, different body composition, hit area and so on. If you fail to incapacitate the target they might retaliate lethally. Which is actually possible with lethal weapons too - people don't always die from a shot or two and not always instantly. So to ens…

Indeed. And on the other side of the equation, if you overdo your non-lethal weapons, they can easily become lethal. Tasers have already claimed many lives. That ball of fast-setting cementy thing you shoot at your target may solidify in a way that chokes your enemy to death. And this is all discounting the possibility of a disabled enemy falling to his death by accident.

Effective non-lethal weapon is a very narrow target to aim for.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#72

Imagine if we took the commandment "Thou shall not kill" to heart. Imagine if instead of killing those men on the roadside, it was the job to the soldiers to incapacitate them but take them alive. Is it possible? Of course it is possible. Perhaps harder, but possible. Here's the funny thing about killing. Somehow we continually find excuses for doing it. And the easiest excuse of all is that the other guy did it firs…

[deleted]

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#73

He ordered the killing of humans because of an assumption? What the shit. Just walk over there and ask the bloke what he's doing, or investigate after they left, or throw in a flash grenade and disable, shoot the legs not the heads. Anything but kill. What are they thinking? That their chances of survival are higher if they kill the enemy combatants before they can kill them? Is this really what it boils down to? Thi…

Welcome to the hot harsh reality of war. Let us know when you realize that sometimes people lie. Your questions about other nicer approaches have been answered literally on the bodies of tens of millions of dead. Humans are extraordinarily deadly apex animals, and they'll go through unbelievable amounts of trouble to avoid getting hurt or killed themselves.

The guys planting the bomb are doing that because they know they won't win in a gun-on-gun fight and the guys shooting the guys planting the bomb are doing that because they know guns don't win against bombs, especially ones you can't see and don't know are about to rip your truck, your buddies and you to shreds. They're all doing what they're doing because foreigners started pushing foreign agendas on them.

Only people who seek to prematurely remove themselves from the gene pool go up and ask "hey fellas, whatcha doin'?". Only people who engage in a firefight, and still want to get shot after hitting their target shoot for the legs. Dead enemies don't shoot back, and nothing is more dangerous than a wounded apex animal. It's faster to kill your enemy if you hit them in the vital organs, the head contains members of the set of vital organs.

Congratulations, your "let's lead with conversation and then if we're dissatisfied with the response, leg shots approach" just killed an entire platoon. Maybe those nice men digging holes to plant bombs in just want to be given gifts of flowers and an understanding hug?

Soldiers aren't meant to be civilized, soldiers are meant to create the environment where civilization can exist. They're the fire that burns away at the wild things and leaves behind clear space to build on.

You can't say "don't shoot unless shot upon" when you're fighting an enemy that attacks you with bombs. Don't shoot unless you've been bombed? Sorry, you're dead. You can't shoot back. Logic dictates that to survive you must shoot before you get bombed.

"Hey blokes, is that a bomb you're planting?" Then what? Of course people surreptitiously trying to plant an explosive device they built in secret after weeks of premeditated intent and are desparately trying to conceal the existence of are going to answer absolutely truthfully and cordially.

"Yes foreign invader, this is a bomb that we made that we hope maims and kills you and your compatriots that we are planting." In your imagination is this to be followed by a friendly and robust exchange of geopolitical viewpoints while sipping tea and snaking on biscuits?

Does everybody afterwards exchange phone numbers and friend each other on Facebook and promise to keep in touch only to exchange greeting cards on major holidays?

"Sorry about the bombs chaps, we'll promise not to do it again." Is that the scenario you think will unfold? That rough men, who decided to fight, and spent weeks gathering material to MacGyver a bomb together that's powerful enough to decimate an armored vehicle and everybody inside, will, in the middle of seeing their plan through, suddenly be open to meaningful conversation with the people they're trying to murder?

And that scared kids, thrust into the middle of a battlefield, after watching their friends get turned into piles of gore and ripped apart, are going to suddenly lose their fucking minds and will to live and walk up to where there's a better than chance a bomb that could turned them into giblets is being planted and engage in a question/answer dialog?

You're absolutely right that war is not acceptable for any human being. But you're absolutely wrong in how wars should be fought and have a fully delusional notion about what happens during them.

Wars should be terrible, there should be no winners, they should be such extraordinary fuck ups that us apex animals go through unbelievable amounts of effort to make sure that we never end up in one. And then when we're in one we should do anything we can to survive and see the other side of it.

But once in a while, too often, we end up in one. And they're pretty fucking awful affairs. They should be about the worst things humans can do to one another. A notion that the alternative to killing your enemies is a friendly conversation in the middle of the battlefield is the product of a line of magical thinking so dense and ignorant I'm not sure I know how to perceive it other than with the strongest patronizing feelings I can muster.

Until you're in a war, or at least something more intense than a mild disagreement over your dry cleaning bill, you should probably keep your opinions about how they should go to yourself and maybe, just maybe, try to figure out what it is about war that's so fucked up that, when it happens, and when people are suddenly in the middle of one, it suddenly makes it reasonably acceptable for people to kill each other.

War is terrible, but your ideas about war are just about as terrible.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#74
No, you didn't learn to kill. You were selected because of your trust in authority and lack of responsibility. Soldiers shouldn't ask for permission to shoot, especially not "snipers". The whole thing is just a charade to enable diffusion of responsibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#75
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked as a mechanical engineer at a company that had 3x as many engineers as that number in one building. We all did a lot of calculations involving explosions, designing systems to survive explosions, etc. I bet if you polled every single one of them, it would be a unanimous agreement that airplanes caused the damage on 9/11. Also note, architects are not the right people to be quoting for this. When we hired arc…

The thing that never ceased to amaze me is the collapse of WT7. I can't explain it.

I can't explain how to perform an appendectomy. When I can't explain something, I rely on the knowledge of experts:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/design/a3524/4278...

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when it comes to firearms, incapacitation doesn't work quite like the movies show. You can't just hit someone in the arm/leg every time (aiming is harder than that), and even if you do it will fairly likely kill them anyway. If you really want to priorize incapacitating enemy soldiers, you're going to have to use different weapons than firearms, weapons that are probably shorter range and slower. That isn't a p…

We could use some serious development in non-lethal weapons, but I'm afraid it might not solve anything - non-lethal weaponry is by definition more complicated by lethal, and thus any technology designed to stun could be repurposed to kill with more effectiveness than the bloodless variant. We'd probably need to reach the level when there would be no practical difference of effectiveness between the two types.

One of the fascinating things to come out of the widespread distribution of non-lethal weapons to police has been two effects:

1 - police are more likely to use non-lethal weapons, even in cases where no weapon at all would work fine, because the long-term consequences of using a non-lethal are minimal

2 - in cases where people do die due to being attacked by a non-lethal weapon, there's generally quite a bit of moral outrage that the weapon was used at all, even if it was well warranted

I suspect if soldiers were issued stun weapons tomorrow, we'd see both of these come true and people would still cry foul when some percentage of targets inevitably died as the result of the use of the non-lethal weapon, and rules of engagement would be vastly changed to virtually eliminate the idea of escalation of force, just go in shooting and sort it out later.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#77
I find it very strange that people talk about soldiers as if they had some special moral responsibility for what happens during a war.

Sure, they should be thinking about the implications and ethics of their actions, as we all should, and yet they also signed up to serve the nation, and to do what their nation thought necessary and just. Do people think that democratic nations should not have armies, and it is an ethical imperative for Americans, English and others to refuse to serve? If not, then it is all of our responsibilities, as voters and citizens, to ensure that only just wars are fought, and using ethical means. If not, then we are all responsible, not just the soldiers.

Instead of asking "how could you kill someone" we should be asking "how can you live in a political system that causes people to be ordered to kill people, in which you have the ability to change this fact".

I'm not a pacifist myself, I just don't see how in a democracy, the buck stops with the soldiers.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#78

No, you didn't learn to kill. You were selected because of your trust in authority and lack of responsibility. Soldiers shouldn't ask for permission to shoot, especially not "snipers". The whole thing is just a charade to enable diffusion of responsibility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

This is ridiculous. Soldiers aren't 'selected' for their trust in authority and lack of responsibility. And they are supposed to ask for permission to shoot. Especially snipers.

I don't know where you got your information, but it wasn't from any experience with military.

Hey, lets look at some US Marine Corps ROE documentation:

"We must review all aspects of the fight, from weaponeering to the understanding of proportionate force. Training needs to be discussion and scenario based, thus forcing Marines to articulate their perceptions of and responses to the situations. “Wrong” answers should not be reprimanded but need to be explored further. This will take time, but we cannot allow wallflowers to escape participation. We must further empower subordinate unit leaders to continue the training at their levels."

Virtually everything the US military teaches is contrary to what you've stated.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#79

Imagine if we took the commandment "Thou shall not kill" to heart. Imagine if instead of killing those men on the roadside, it was the job to the soldiers to incapacitate them but take them alive. Is it possible? Of course it is possible. Perhaps harder, but possible. Here's the funny thing about killing. Somehow we continually find excuses for doing it. And the easiest excuse of all is that the other guy did it firs…

The Bible very unambiguously does not prohibit killing, it prohibits unjustified or unlawful killing. If we took it to heart, we'd continue doing exactly what we're doing, which is killing people when we feel justified in doing so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill#Justified_k...

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#80
post #73

He ordered the killing of humans because of an assumption? What the shit. Just walk over there and ask the bloke what he's doing, or investigate after they left, or throw in a flash grenade and disable, shoot the legs not the heads. Anything but kill. What are they thinking? That their chances of survival are higher if they kill the enemy combatants before they can kill them? Is this really what it boils down to? Thi…

Welcome to the hot harsh reality of war. Let us know when you realize that sometimes people lie. Your questions about other nicer approaches have been answered literally on the bodies of tens of millions of dead. Humans are extraordinarily deadly apex animals, and they'll go through unbelievable amounts of trouble to avoid getting hurt or killed themselves. The guys planting the bomb are doing that because they know…

And yet, maybe those men were actually farmers, producing an irrigation ditch to produce the food they need to feed their families.

War terrible or not, whether your side believes it is righteous or not, is an us vs. them endeavor: there is no absolute right, both parties assume they are the righteous. A moral human does not get himself in a situation where he has to make such a decision. I've never killed anyone and I suspect you haven't either.

Normal, well-adjusted adult humans may be apex animals, but they certainly aren't inherently violent. There's a subset of that population who has a cluster B personality disorder that exploits a larger subset of the population who has limited opportunity to feed their family in order to create such violence.

Any analysis of war must take in to account the us vs. them situation. Imagine reversing the scenario, imagining an Afghani soldier wandering around the United States with a weapon, deciding who to shoot and for what behavior. Would your reaction be the same? Would you still think it was the correct decision?

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